Help - Atholl Highlanders

Irish Flute
1

Hi,
I’ve been away for a while, but never ever stooped practicing. Yet, as of late, I stumbled into the most horrendous piece for flute ever: The Atholl Highlanders. The second part (and only the second part) is obscenely difficult to play at session speed:

Ace Ace|Adf Adf|Ace Ace|Bcd c2B|
Ace Ace|Adf Adf|eae fed|cdB A3:|

It’s impossible to slur (is it?) Using the throat is too slow, and I’ve had to resort to tonguing. But it comes out all mangled and horrible. I just HATE those 2 arpeggios (Ace - Adf) with a passion. Fiddlers do it easily as well as the concertina players, Even whistlers are able to do it nicely. Why is this thing so damning difficult on the flute?

Sorry for the rant, but if anyone can come up with some suggestions for practice or even pointers of decent flute performances of this tune, I would be deeply grateful

Thanks for any help,

2

So what’s ‘session speed’? (It’s a 6/8 march too often driven into a jig!)

It’s impossible to slur (is it?)

No.

3

I play that tune with our band. After about 15 years I can say I’ve about got it, but I still think it’s an absolutely rotten flute tune, and I’m never thrilled when it pops up on the set list. It’s a Northern or Scottish fiddle tune, really. I also believe it might be a march but “Fiddlesticks” went and ruined it for everyone. Anyway, the one recording I can think of is Frankie Kennedy and Mairead Ni Mhaonaigh’s “Ceol Aduaidh” recording, and from the sound of the flute I almost wonder if he’s playing a high-pitch flute on it (maybe an E flute, which means you play A tunes in G, which means life would be beautiful)? Regardless, he has some lovely variations that function as nice workarounds, so it’s probably worth tracking that down. However, you’ll notice they also play it at a lovely sensible pace, too, unlike most folk I know … :really:

http://claddaghrecords.com/WWW/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=2892

I’m not sure if it’s available for download, but the CD is something any serious flute player should have, anyway. :slight_smile:

FWIW, it’s actually lots of fun on an A whistle. But if you don’t have access to one of those, it just might be an excellent time to go to the bar. Some tunes aren’t meant to be killing yourself over.

Oh, BTW, I use a combination of slur and glottals: A-slur-C-cut/glottal E, etc. to emphasize the repeated top note. Also, it’s the only way I can figure out how to keep my left hand from falling off. Good luck!

4

Pipe (GHB) tune, beyond doubt.

5

Ah, duh. That would make sense. And it was a Highland piper who got us into that mess to start with … see? I’ve blanked it out.

If I still drank I would be going to the bar during it for sure. Although I should say that the Frankie/Mairead recording did make me appreciate it in a whole new light. Poor old tune, all beat to death …

6

This is of course a Highland pipers tune and fingers very nicely on a highland chanter, the G#'s are also a challenge for the flute. The Key of A isn’t the friendliest. If you play it in the key of D then it’s much easier. Try starting the tune in D and see if the fiddles follow:twisted:

Tjones

7

What G#s?

8

Dear Cathy

Thanks for your support. it’s not only me, after all. Yes, it’s true I complain but I probably shouldn’t. You have been playing for 15 years, and me, only slightly less: 1.5 years :smiley: But I can get most tunes if not with the right ornaments, at least I can play them at tempo, while this one is a terrible mess. And I’ve been struggling with it for 5 months. :swear:

Thanks for the tip. I’ll definitely check it out

I practice it every single day and cannot get it straight! But you are right. It’s probably not worthy to become obsessed with it . Perhaps in 2-3 years it will come out nicely

And that suggestion of slurring form A to c and then use a glotal for e might be worth some effort. Probably on the second arpeggio, using the same glotal going from A to d and then slurring up to f#… hmmmm. this will take some time, but it might work… Thank you!

Oh and Peter, yes we play it as a jig. and a very fast jig. I would say 380 bpm. It’s a typical 6/8 jig so it is equivalent to a 190 bpm as a 3/4 tune [EDIT: I did the math wrong - silly me! - as we have 2 beats per bar and not 6, the tempo I was quoting (6/8 @ 380 bpm), should be divided by 3 and not by 2 as I’ve done :tomato: So the actual tempo we play in our sessions is something on the line of 125 bpm, or there about - Sorry for the confusion! ]

9

bpm for a jig is measured two to a bar. Around 3/8=120 would be normal dancing speed. Maybe 3/8=132-136 for a session.

It was originally a slow march with an even slower section in the middle in duple time (one old title for the tune is “The Duke of Athole’s Pibroch”, which doesn’t exactly suggest jig speed). I have never heard that duple time bit played.

10

How fast do reels get played in (good) sessions, mostly?
Hornpipes?

11

.

So we play it (not me though!) at “blazing speed”! Using your way of measuring a jig’s tempo (which makes sense) we are playing it around 180-190 bpm. That’s why it’s so hard!

In checking for other references I found this youtube video some time ago, which is nicely played with a fiddle. As of the present, I can actually keep up with her, even slurring the difficult B part arpeggios. I thought she was playing it slowly, compared to what I’m used to, so never really saw it as a guide…

So the problem are probably my steroids-fed session mates and not my flute playing - it is ALWAYS a problem, but apparently not for this issue!

12

Cathy’s right. Grab an A whistle and off you go. Every home should have one…

m.d.

13

This is not an easy tune to get right, but it’s not at all THAT hard. You’ve been playing only for 1,5 years, give it more time. There are tunes that are way harder for flute, especially if keys are involved. If they’re really playing it at 190bpm (which I seriously doubt), that’s way too fast, this is supposed to be music, not a race. Just for reference on speed, in the video you linked they are playing at about 90bpm…

14

Really? I thought she was at 110-120 bpm! I have to check my bpm perception and bring my metronome to the session. If so, I probably inflated my numbers :tomato: …

15

Twice through the complete four-parter with repeats in c.2 mins 4 secs = 256 beats (8 x 32) in 124 seconds = c.124 bpm, which is full jig speed and way beyond march tempo (though IMHO this tune can take it), with anything quicker being overdriven and 190 bpm just anti-musical lunacy (as in don’t do it because it’s not even ‘exciting’)!

16

I should clarify and say that even though I’ve been playing it for 15 years, and it’s not really fraught with peril anymore, I’m very rarely happy with how it comes out.

FWIW, I find it helpful to NOT think of those ACE BDF patterns as arpeggios (even though they are). One other thing I can hear that might work there, at least for practicing slowly, is a tight Cde or def piping triplet, ala A(3cde) A(3cde) B(3def) B(3def). I would be cautious with those, though – until you can get them really, really tight, which takes ages of practice, especially on the flute – they can be dangerous to your rhythm.

Anyway, I think the real problem is that lots of people play it crazy-fast. My theory is that “Fiddlesticks” infected a few fiddlers, and the speed disease has just spread from there. Sort of like the dreaded “Tam Lin.” People tend to rush on upward patterns to start with; add a few frantic flutes and weekend-warrior rhythm players and it’s off to the races. And like Peter says (and the Frankie/Mairead recording shows), it’s a nice enough tune when it’s played with bounce instead of as a rushing torrent of notes.

The Fiddlesticks recording I’m referring to is in the Track 15 set here: http://www.amazon.com/Irish-Traditional-Music-Fiddlesticks/dp/B0000037EC and even though this part is the Jig of Slurs, you can tell the pace is pretty bright to start with.

But at the end of the day, since it isn’t quite as much of an ergonomic nightmare on even the D whistle, maybe just make it one of your whistle tunes. I kind of have, and I like its character on the whistle more anyway; it gets a bit cute and bippety. If you want to sidestep the G# in that “walk up” that a lot of people worry about in the 3rd part, you could try BCd ~ee (short roll)_e … or BCd ~ee_d, or a short e roll with a breath (~ee’), or even a clipped long roll on the e (BCd eee’) with room for a breath (that’s the ') before the next a. I’m sans whistle at the moment, but I think I usually do a short-e-roll-breath-d combo there.

Or, of course, you could just develop the world’s loveliest marchy bouncy version of it and see if you can cure your session-mates. Maybe it’ll catch on and you’ll have done a favor for all tunekind. :slight_smile:

Sorry for the rambles! I’ll go away now. Good luck!

17

Have to say most of this thread (apart from the advice on tempo and the comments about the poor, beat-up old tune) puzzles me!

There are no G#s in the setting I know/play unless you find incidental variational ways to insert one. I learnt it by ear over many years, though, so can’t pretend to “have” an orthodox setting of any reputable provenance. It is pretty much a long-standing stock tune at English Barn Dances (as they used to be called before the Young Farmers started using the term for discos in a barn and folkies took to using "ceilidh/ceili) especially used for stock dances requiring/usually danced to jigs such as The Gay Gordons and Circassian Circle.

The B music arpeggios under discussion are not/should not be any harder on transverse flute than on whistle (if you’re holding the flute properly!), and apart from being somewhat unfamiliar patterns in Irish music so maybe don’t “fall under the fingers” as readily to ITM-only players, they are not at all difficult.

The discussion about articulation also baffles me. What difficulty is there in playing the over-the-break arpeggios legato? There is no need to tongue, glottal or finger-articulate the Ace Bdf patterns. Moreover, I would argue that, until you can do them cleanly with perfect finger-co-ordination, it is best to practice such passages legato as tongue or throat stops mask/evade sloppy finger timing. I wouldn’t articulate them anyway save perhaps for a special effect variation.

FWIW, the D music offers an opportunity to get in some middle D 5-finger taps to separate those repeated open C#s (cAc cAc) - good for your co-ordination and effective.

18

What I’ve been trying to say, Jem…

I learnt it by ear over many years, though so can’t pretend to “have” an orthodox setting of any reputable provenance.

So have just been ABCing this one from Logan’s tutor (NB pipe gracings omitted and key signature added for clarity), and would suggest that (as well as noting the absence of G#s) the dotted rhythms and Scotch snaps are strong hints re. the tempo and bounce of the tune…

(Edited 24 February 2012)

X:1
T:The Atholl Highlanders’ March
S:Logan’s Complete Tutor for the Highland Bagpipe (edited as noted below)
N:Pipe gracings omitted and key signature added
N:First part anacrusis (cd) changed to c/d
N:Second part anacrusis (e) added
N:Repeat signs adjusted to suit
M:6/8
R:March
L:1/8
K:AMix
c/d|:e3 e>cA|e>cA B>cd|e3 e>cA|B>cd c>BA|
e3 e>cA|e>cA B>cd|ced|1 ccd:|2 c<dB A2e|
|:A>ce A>ce|B>df B>df|A>ce A>ce|B>cd c>BA|
A>ce A>ce|B>df B>df|ced|c<dB A2e:|
|:a2e e>dc|a2e e>dc|a2e e>dc|B>cd c2e|1
a2e e>dc|a2e e2d|ced|c<dB A2e:|2
a2e a2e|f2f e2d|ced|c<dB A2B||
|:c<Ac c<Ac|d>Bd d>Bd|c<Ac c<Ac|Bcd|
c<Ac c<Ac|d>Bd d>Bd|ced|1 c<dB A2B:|2 c<dB A3|]

19

Lovely. Meanwhile, this would be the version I hear the most in the States (with the g#):

X: 1
T:Atholl Highlanders, The
R:jig
M:6/8
L:1/8
K:A
~e3 ecA|ecA Bcd|~e3 ecA|Bcd cBA|!
~e3 ecA|ecA Bcd|eae fed|1 cdB Acd:|2 cdB A2A||!
Ace Ace|Bdf Bdf|Ace Ace|Bcd cBA|!
Ace Ace|Bdf Bdf|eae fed|cdB A2A:|!
a2e edc|a2e edc|a2e edc|Bcd efg|!
a2e edc|a2e edc|~e3 fed|1 cdB A2A:|2 cdB A2B||!
c2c cAc|d2d dBd|c2c cAc|B2B B=GB|!
c2c cAc|d2d dBd|eae fed|1 cdB A2B:|2 cdB Acd||!

Jem, maybe you could spend a little time with this one and weigh in on it?

20

Cor, don’t make life easy for us and post the dots (from the ABC) too… (but I can play dirty too…)

This would be a fair representation (unornamented) of how I have it (and I think, written more simply, this is very close to what Peter gave above - I should trust my ears more! :slight_smile:):
T: The Atholl Highlanders
R:jig
M:6/8
L:1/8
K:A mix
e3 ecA|ecA Bcd|e3 ecA|Bcd cBA|e3 ecA|ecA Bcd|eae fed|1 cdB A3:|]
[|:Ace Ace|Bdf Bdf|Ace Ace|Bcd c2B (or dcB)|Ace Ace|Bdf Bdf|eae fed|cdB A3:|]
[|:a2e edc|a2e edc|a2e edc|Bcd c2B (or dcB)|a2e edc|a2e edc|eae fed|1 cdB A3:|]2 cdB A2B|]
[|:cAc cAc|dBd dBd|cAc cAc|BGB BGB|cAc cAc|dBd dBd|eae fed|1 cdB A2B:|]2 cdB A3|]

One might just possibly go for a terminal flourish with |ef^g a3| a last bar to end on; but see the “Comments” on the tune’s listing over on The Session over that!