Interesting late Hawkes flute/piccolo set on eBay

Irish Flute
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Currently on eBay from our friend PHI is this rather lovely looking concert flute + piccolo set made by Hawkes & Son. It is a Hawkes version of Pratten-style flute, pin mounted, gorgeous cocus but with what appears to be an Ebonite section in the head in which the embouchure is cut. I’m guessing it must be pretty late, probably well into the C20th, but obviously pre-1930. It is stamped as “C LP”, and assuming Phil’s measurements (Overall length 675mm, Sounding Length 610mm, C#-Eb 255mm) are accurate, they fit with that info - real LP as in diapason normal, A=432-5-ish. I think this is rather unusual in that one expects to find both English HP and A439/440 instruments from Hawkes, but not LP ones. The “LP” stamp can sometimes (confusingly) mean what we now call Concert Pitch, by contrast with real High Pitch, but clearly not in this case.

“Excelsior Sonorous” was Hawkes’ highest level of quality, and the piccolo is clearly a bespoke instrument - at first glance it looks nach-Meyerish, but careful inspection of the photos show that the extra top-end keys are not the normal Austro/German layout, and the tone-hole arrangement is English in style, as is the Eb key. There appears to be a rod-axle extra touch for Bb for either R1 or R2 to use, there is an extra flange-touch to the G# for R1, and most surprisingly, there is an extra C nat touch to the normal C key for L thumb, and also what I think is a D (rather than E) trill. With overall length 315mm and sounding length 270mm, it too is almost certainly LP/diapason normal.

I reckon (educated guess!) this set must have been bespoke-made either for an English fluter working on the continent or in the US where diapason normal reigned, or for sale to a foreigner who wanted an English style flute… It wouldn’t have had much practical application in Britain. I’m pretty sure Hawkes wouldn’t have routinely offered real LP (diapason normal) flutes ex-stock as well as HP and “ordinary” LP (as in near modern CP)… I bet that flute is an absolute stonker - powerful, good intonation - but not very much use to anyone now at A=432-5! It’d probably play well at 430, but the period instrument crew wouldn’t want it for Beethoven and Schubert etc.

If this was a CP set it ought to be pretty valuable, and certainly well worth acquiring. Given it is LP, despite how well it is likely to play, it just isn’t really worth bidding up, unless one wants it as a collector or for private playing. Rather tasty, though…

Terry, I’d be interested in your thoughts on this one, and useful info from it for your database?

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Never mind Terry’s reply…maybe PHI will comment on your report, at least this one has the case…still. Hate to be in a kangaroo court with some of you on here. LoL

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Hi Jem et al

Hmmm, very puzzling isn’t it. A C#-D# length of 255 wouldn’t be too daunting under normal circumstances - it’s in the middle of what we see from “Improved Era” flutes like Nicholson’s and R&R. Longer than ideal for modern pitch playing, but workaroundable. But Improved Era flutes have a sounding length of 567-585mm; this one is reported to be 610, suggesting not only is the body scale ideal for a pitch lower than modern, but so is the rest of the flute. But, then again, we know we pull out the heads of Improved Era flutes quite a bit to get down to modern pitch, so we need to see what that renders the effective speaking length.

I pulled out my typical large holed Nicholson as it has a C#-D# length about 255mm, and pulled the head out to give it a sounding length of 610mm, leaving a gap about 27mm. Pitch came out at about 60 cents flat.

Coming at it the other way, I pushed the Nicholson in until it was about right for A440, which coincided with a gap of around 12.5mm. Sounding length then was 595mm. The flute under discussion is 610mm, 15mm more.

It’s hard to imagine what market a flute like this was made for!

Terry

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Thanks for taking a peek, Terry. What do you reckon to the piccolo’s keys?

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Kind of a conundrum isn’t it? If I might wax somewhat Phil-0-sophical here, I would re-echo Jem’s wondering if the measurements are accurate. :smiley:

Bob

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I think you’ve analysed the operation accurately, Jem. Interesting that the pic comes with all bells & whistles, while the flute is stock-standard 8-key. Are we looking for a famous professional English piccolo player of the time, who had a tour lined up on the continent, and brought a flute along, “just in case”, as we say?

I’m reminded of stories about a touring concertina player who had a number of concertinas made in the various keys he was likely to be called upon to play. Good to be a flute player in a world without standards. Hmmm, that pretty much sums up today’s ethical climate!

Terry

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Ha ha! Revision from PHI: “Apologies to everyone…Have double checked the sounding length and it is 600mm NOT 610mm”.

Still makes this a DN flute, “LP” in relation to CP, not to English HP. It is quite clearly a conoid bore, so although that SL would be CP for a cylinder bore/Bohm tube, it’s still at least 20mm too long for viable CP playing. I’m pretty confident that, even if one could just about get the left hand notes up to concert with the slide closed and lipping it up, the R hand and foot notes would be way flat/the scale too stretched.

Some silly speculation about the almost certainly original Ebonite embouchure band going on on the eBay listing too and I rather suspect the folk who have bid it up to £360+ don’t appreciate its LP-ness and therefore poor utility. It really is a gorgeous and unusual set in excellent condition and “ought” perhaps to be worth rather more as a collector’s item, and part of me hopes that gets reflected in the upshot, but from a practical playing perspective it could prove a frustration to an unwitting buyer.

(BTW, I am absolutely not in any way having a pop at PHI in this thread - he started it at a low starting price with no reserve and has presented it honestly and fairly, so far as I can see and within the limits of detail he routinely bothers to provide. The only slight (and clearly justified!) question was over the care with which he took his measurements. Good luck to him!)

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The Hawkes went for a pretty penny! $1,830! I think you got a better deal on that block mounted Hawkes, a couple of weeks ago… :party: