Anybody want to reccomend a (website or) book aimed at somebody who’s never seriously tried writing poems before?
Several years ago, I asked a friend a similar question. Mine was: “I want to write songs, what advice do you have for me?” My friend is a brilliant person, and a one-time concert pianist, who composes original pieces. After giving it a moment of thought, the reply was, “listen to music that has meaning to you.”
Many years, and many songs later, I can say that this worked well for me. While I am not a professional, there are some of my songs I would not trade for ones that are much better known or more successful commercially. So I would echo that kind of advice, especially for young people. If you want to write, read a lot. If it is poetry, there is a lot out there. Sample everything that you can find and see what styles and themes resonate with you. If you are able to attend live poetry readings so much the better. After a gestation period there follows a period of doing. For some poets and songwriters, it is almost a manic condition–something they must do. For some it is a ritual, for others it can become a chore.
I can relate another anecdote, though it may not be a true one. A young man attended a concert where Mozart was present. The young man aspired to be a composer and after the concert asked Mozart, that same question: “I would like to compose music, what advice would you give me.” Mozart replied, “if I were you I would focus on simple pieces.” The young man retorted, “simple pieces? But you were composing full symphonies by the age of 17, why do you suggest that I focus on simple compositions?” Mozart: “yes, but I never asked anyone for advice on composing music.”
- Bill
Thanks, Bill. 
I do in fact read a lot of poetry (and a lot of everything else, for that matter…I live in the library all day Mondays and Wednesdays…).
I have lots of ideas and things I want to write about (I keep things written down), but I’m having trouble with the actual how of it…if that makes sense.
I was thinking of buying this book or another like it…
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0156724006/103-8698152-0702216?_encoding=UTF8&v=glance
And I value what the members here have to say on the subject.
I don’t know. It can’t hurt, if you have absolutely no idea where to start. But the best thing is to find someting you feel strongly about and then try to put it to words. I think if you spend too much time worrying about getting the line breaks right or finding the right form, you’ll suck all the life out of it before you start. “Just write shit down,” is advice I got once. “See where it takes you.”
What is it you want to know? Stuff about form? About metre? Rhyme?
All that info is out there, or you could probably google your way to anything you want to know.
Here’s the first site that showed up on google when I tried “poetry glossary” http://www.infoplease.com/spot/pmglossary1.html
Read these terms, or soem of them, and then use those as teh starting point for other searches if you don’t quite get it, and you’ll soon have more info than you can digest.
~~
However, I wouldn’t let yourself be intimidated. It’s better to have something to say than to know how to say it.
My advice is really just to start writing and don’t stop. You’ll get better; that’s how it works.
Listen to the sounds of what you’ve written as you write it. Feel it’s shape on your tongue, and try to get that down. All the form stuff will follow.
If you want to write lyrics, one trick is to write to tunes you already know, even well known tunes, and once you’re done, throw the melody out and compose another, or vary it until its unrecognisable. This will keep you to a solid metre.
Seems like I learned the most out of 11th Grade English class. The textbook (in fact the textbook for all my high school English classes, both in Oklahoma and by home schooling, when I was overseas) was the Adventures in Literature series.
These days, almost anything can pass as poetry, so personally, I would not fret about the “how.” There is power in the doing. One of my favorite analogies is that you can not learn to play tennis from a book. Yes, you can learn the rules and the phrases that describe certain tactics and the proper way to serve and all, but until you go to a court and hits some balls, you will not know how to play tennis. This is true of playing an instrument and any number of other endeavors. So while some background and study of technique may be useful, I am sure there are many poets who never learned any of that stuff. They are “naturals.”
For songwriters, there is an art side and a craft side. Learning and practicing the craft side has helped me, when that moment of inspiration does come. For some people working on the craft side is dull and boring and not worth a dime, but for others like myself, it was well worth my time. A book like the one you linked may be quite helpful with the craft side of poetry. From what you are saying you would like that. However, I’m sure you can find similar books in the library, or similar information on the Internet.
I can relate a story of Ray Bradbury, best known for “Fahrenheit 451.” He was a mediocre writer as high school senior, but resolved to become better. One thing he did was write a poem every day, along with working on his short stories, novels, and plays. That kind of scheduling and discipline helps with the craft side. Another author says that the secret to writing is glue–glueing your butt to the chair until you have written something each and every day.
- Bill
I’ve looked a number of books written for people asking for what you’re asking for. The only one that I thought really was useful is A Poetry Handbook by Mary Oliver. Used copies are on Amazon.com for under $7. But, I have to tell you, the key is reading lots of poetry. Fortunately there are lots of really fine poetry websites. (There are also a lot of crappy ones). I can help you locate some good ones if you want. Then you just have to read, read, read. If you want to hold the poetry in your hand, get a copy of the Best American Poetry 2000. That was a good year. 2002’s edition is not good.
I also recommend to beginners that they consider writing haiku as a way to start, using a good set of rules for haiku. (There are a lot more and a lot more important ones that 5/7/5). This gets you used to the discipline of being very careful about each and every word and economy of expression. Even with haiku, you need a good handbook, and that would most definitely be Haiku Handbook: How to Write, Share, and Teach Haiku
by William J. Higginson.
If that were the case, then we would all be poets. And if almost anything “passes for poetry,” then what makes a good poem? When they hand out the Pulitzer for poetry, what criteria is used to determine the winner? There’s a lot more to this than just putting your feelings down on paper. Most schools offer poetry workshops where you write and have your work critiqued by your peers. If you’re genuinely interested in learning and improving, that might be a good option.
I agree with much of Bill Chin’s other comments – especially the part about reading a lot of poetry. It’s like playing ITM – the more you experience, the more it soaks in.
Will O’Ban
Never mind.
I really, really like, “She’s almost rain, but not quite”, and “Will she stick to the ground?”
Garrison Keillor edited a book called Good Poems, that I really like. I also recommend Charles Bukowski, who’s stuff is really visceral and raw.
Dale’s right. You need to be really careful not to read bad poetry that you don’t know is bad. It will leave you with bad habits.
What makes a good poem? The Pulitzer and other awards are one thing, and for these, deconstruction and analysis of style reaches a high level. However, while Cranberry and other readers may aspire to such goals, most poets write for self-expression and acknowledgement of the relatively small audiences that may read or hear their poems. In this case, and in my opinion, what makes a good poem, is the light, fire, imagination, the passion. In other words, the art side of poetry. Again, it helps to have developed the craft so that fire can express itself quickly and purely. For many, reading and studying books about how to write poetry will help, but for a few it may actually serve to stifle and dampen the fire.
For live poetry readings, humor helps a great deal. So many poems have dark, self-reflective or angry themes that a good romp helps liven up the room.
For poets that use rhymes, there are any number of online rhyming dictionaries. In my opinion, accents and mispronunciation, while not proper English, might actually add to a poem, making it stand out and adding a regional flavor.
- Bill
Not by me, I remember his Martian Chronicles best! 
Never heard of Farenheit 451. 
I’m not in the proper mood to debate this today.
With that said, let’s take the word “good” out of your question, and ask, “What makes a poem?” Seems to me that if someone’s going to write the stuff, they need to know what the “stuff” is – and what the “stuff” isn’t. Otherwise they may be just writing a lot of flowery words in short little phrases – which may or may not necessarily be poetry. Of course if they’re just doing it for themselves and a small audience that likes flowery words in short little phrases then I guess there’s nothing wrong with that. Other people expect something more from a poem, and perhaps that’s where the word “good” comes into play. Poetry isn’t just ideas – its imagery, it’s sound, it’s texture, it’s ecconomy and freshness of language.
You said that what makes a good poem for you, is the light, fire, imagination, the passion. That’s true. That is all included in good poetry; however, that is also included in good prose.
Nobody is talking about stylistic analysis here. It’s sort of like playing ITM – either it’s played correctly or its not. The folks who determine if it’s correct are generally those who have studied it, and not those who decide on a whim that “this is the way I want to do it.” (The latter is fine for those who are writing for themselves or for those who like the type of thing that is being written – but it’s not necessarily correct.)
Will O’Ban
For all that technical stuff, I recommend ‘The Poem’s Heartbeat’.
It’s almost purely about the technical details of poetry, especially helpful on understanding meter.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1885266405/qid=1108055467/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl14/002-0582489-3370434?v=glance&s=books&n=507846
Cran, poetry is imagery. You have a couple of good ones in your piece. I like, “Will she stick to the ground?”
“Her body is fragile but her mind is not.” Where is the image here? How could you better describe her body and mind to convey a strong picture?
“She walks on a razor’s edge.” Nice image – but I believe it’s a bit of a cliche. Cliches are a cardinal sin. Lazy writers use them when they don’t want to think of a fresh way of saying something. We all do it from time to time, but they should be avoided and shot on sight when found.
Think “sound” also as you choose your language. The sound sets the tone. I wouldn’t worry too much about your own accent. There have been many fine southern poets. James Dickey is one who readily comes to mind. When I say “sound,” I don’t necessarily mean words with a strong rhyme scheme. Certain sounds within words convey a certain tone better than other sounds.
I seem to remember that someone above suggested checking into writing workshops at school. I agree with this person wholeheartedly – if I do say so myself. Workshops give you a chance to talk with others who share your interests and also to get constructive feedback on what you are doing effectively and on what you may need to work on. If money is an issue for enrolling in the workshop, then I suggest striking up an acquaintence with the instructors and asking them if you can just sit in on the sessions and take part without the benefit of a grade. Most writing teachers are real suckers for students that show an interest in the stuff for the sake of learning rather than trying to suck-up to a grade. Besides, no one else needs to know you are an unpaying student in the class – which would keep the administrators from giving the instructor problems.
Good luck,
Will O’Ban
It’s not suppose to actually be about cold weather, but about an abusive mother.
I don’t know how to say it other than “she beats me and feeds me nails for breakfast” or something.
Can I ask another question? How does a person know what’s cliche and what’s not?
Well, I guess you could say,“I really didn’t care for the way you treated me all those times you made me eat dirt, you pond sucking scum.” Or, if writing about your father, you could express those sentiments like this:
Daddy
by: Sylvia Plath
You do not do, you do not do
Any more, black shoe
In which I have lived like a foot
For thirty years, poor and white,
Barely daring to breathe or Achoo.
Daddy, I have had to kill you.
You died before I had time–
Marble-heavy, a bag full of God,
Ghastly statue with one gray toe
Big as a Frisco seal
And a head in the freakish Atlantic
Where it pours bean green over blue
In the waters off beautiful Nauset.
I used to pray to recover you.
Ach, du.
In the German tongue, in the Polish town
Scraped flat by the roller
Of wars, wars, wars.
But the name of the town is common.
My Polack friend
Says there are a dozen or two.
So I never could tell where you
Put your foot, your root,
I never could talk to you.
The tongue stuck in my jaw.
It stuck in a barb wire snare.
Ich, ich, ich, ich,
I could hardly speak.
I thought every German was you.
And the language obscene
An engine, an engine
Chuffing me off like a Jew.
A Jew to Dachau, Auschwitz, Belsen.
I began to talk like a Jew.
I think I may well be a Jew.
The snows of the Tyrol, the clear beer of Vienna
Are not very pure or true.
With my gipsy ancestress and my weird luck
And my Taroc pack and my Taroc pack
I may be a bit of a Jew.
I have always been scared of you,
With your Luftwaffe, your gobbledygoo.
And your neat mustache
And your Aryan eye, bright blue.
Panzer-man, panzer-man, O You–
Not God but a swastika
So black no sky could squeak through.
Every woman adores a Fascist,
The boot in the face, the brute
Brute heart of a brute like you.
You stand at the blackboard, daddy,
In the picture I have of you,
A cleft in your chin instead of your foot
But no less a devil for that, no not
Any less the black man who
Bit my pretty red heart in two.
I was ten when they buried you.
At twenty I tried to die
And get back, back, back to you.
I thought even the bones would do.
But they pulled me out of the sack,
And they stuck me together with glue.
And then I knew what to do.
I made a model of you,
A man in black with a Meinkampf look
And a love of the rack and the screw.
And I said I do, I do.
So daddy, I’m finally through.
The black telephone’s off at the root,
The voices just can’t worm through.
If I’ve killed one man, I’ve killed two–
The vampire who said he was you
And drank my blood for a year,
Seven years, if you want to know.
Daddy, you can lie back now.
There’s a stake in your fat black heart
And the villagers never liked you.
They are dancing and stamping on you.
They always knew it was you.
Daddy, daddy, you bastard, I’m through.
12 October 1962
From The Collected Poems by Sylvia Plath, published by Harper & Row. Copyright © 1981 by the Estate of Sylvia Plath.
Copyright © 1997-2005 by The Academy of American Poets
Will O’Ban
PS: The language and ways of expressing her ideas are fresh – in a disturbing sort of way. There are no cliches or worn-out or borrowed phrases.
When I read something, it enters my head in my own accent, not the way it’s ‘supposed’ to sound. So, for example, ‘air’ rhymes with ‘shower’ and ‘no’ rhymes with ‘bowl’. ‘Talk’ and ‘knock’ don’t rhyme, even though for most people they do. Syllables get cut and new ones get added, so I’m always worried.
That is very very cool. DON’T try and get rid of this perspective; embrace it. Poetry is all about finding a voice, and yours is singular and rich. That’s going to amek for really interesting poetry, IMO.
I’m serious.
Fine, no debate, we’ll just agree to disagree.
–
Martin,
Here is a link to Fahrenheit 451 on Mr. Bradbury’s site:
from http://www.raybradbury.com/books/fahrenheit451.html
Most libraries will have a copy.
Internationally acclaimed with more than 5 million copies in print, FAHRENHEIT 451 is Ray Bradbury’s classic novel of censorship and defiance, as resonant today as it was when it was first published nearly 50 years ago.
Guy Montag was a fireman whose job it was to start fires…
The system was simple. Everyone understood it. Books were for burning … along with the houses in which they were hidden.
Guy Montag enjoyed his job. He had been a fireman for ten years, and he had never questioned the pleasure of the midnight runs nor the joy of watching pages consumed by flames… never questioned anything until he met a seventeen-year-old girl who told him of a past when people were not afraid.