I’ve been playing low D whistles
a lot, and this actually strengthens
the lips so that I can pick up
a low D flute and play it,
but not well. I’m practicing flute
everyday–quite isolated here
in Rosemead, CA. How long, roughly,
does it take to get a competent
embouchure? How much do you
have to play to keep it?
How do you know when you
have it?
Thanks, Jim
Whistles add nothing to or for your embouchure. They might help (in the case of a low D) with building breath control/release, and, of course, to learn tunes, ornaments, rhythms, etc. But playing whistle has nothing to do with your embouchure, strenghtening it, getting it ready, whatever. In fact, in my opinion, too much whistle and too little flute is probably bad for your embouchure.
Also, far more annoying. 
Hi Jim,
As you might have suspected it would vary from person to person and case to case. Also I think it depends on how you define “competent” embouchure, and how high you are setting your sights on. Just keep up with the daily practice and do it as often as possible and it should come sooner rather than later. I didn’t find that practicing low whistle was that helpful in playing the flute, so from my perspective it would be better to practice the flute to play the flute.
As for how long you need to practice to keep it, I believe it varies from case to case to but generally as someone starting out not long on the flute its better to play more so as to program the feel of a right embouchure in your head. I remember when I was trying to get a steady tone, one day of skipped practice would be sufficient to make me sound like crap the next day. And the fact that I wasn’t patient with myself made it a terribly exasperating experience.
I know when I have “it” when I find that the usage of air has become very efficient and there isn’t any air expelled that isn’t used to create sound. For me I like my tone to be very “dry” so when I hear that I know I’m having a good embouchure day. Also the flute will become incredibly responsive with a good embouchure and be sensitive to every twitch my finger makes and every bit of change in my breath velocity. It will also bark rough and loud when I push it, and I can feel the column of air vibrating in the flute.
Although the amount will vary, it appears to
me that Jim is looking for a “time frame” reference, perhaps some kind of average.
Kinda curious myself…
I’ve been playing for about three weeks and I’m absoluely fabulous! 
Patrick
I can’t tell you how long it’ll take you, but I can tell you how long it has taken me (so far) starting with the first flute I ever played at age 11:
At about 2 months I could play down to low D.
At about 3 years I had achieved a three octave range.
At about 9 years I had achieved real dynamic control, the ability to play very soft to very loud without altering pitch or tone.
At about 10 years I had develped a ringing, orchestral tone and was starting to learn to play in different tonal pallettes.
Then I laid it down for years, and when I came back to it, did it all over again with the Irish flute. The good news: it went much quicker the second time.
There are plenty of folks who develop these things quicker than I have, though, so don’t get discouraged by looking at my numbers. (I actually got fairly discouraged from living through it, but that’s a different story entirely.)
Like they say in Texas, though, “Oil’s well that ends well.”
Best wishes to all,
–James
http://www.flutesite.com
Actually, all kidding aside, After a couple of weeks I’m getting some really beautiful sounds. Consistency is a major problem.
One time I pick it up and sound like I should be ready for Wooden Flute Obsession II any time now. Two minutes later I pick it up and it sounds like crap. :roll:
My biggest challenge is breath control. I’m always running out of wind in the wrong places. I can play all the way through an Air (sort of) but am absolutely hopeless on anything fast.
I believe that Swallowtail Jig actually was intended to be played as a waltz. 
Doc
Wherever you go, there you are.
I think it took me about a year to get a really strong embouchure, and I could hear and feel (in taking less air to do the same passages) it improving as I went along. I am rhythmically challenged. That’s why I play mostly airs.
A couple of months longer than I tried before getting discouraged.
Thanks to all. I have no plan to
learn flute by playing whistle,
I promise! Only I can play flute
for some reason, get all the notes,
etc. and I can’t figure out why
unless five years of fanatically
playing whistle enabled me
to do so. I don’t have 9 years
and I actually want to be
making money on the street
before too long. I think
that Jessie’s estimate
of about one year makes
good sense. You can be
awful on the street.
Well, this
is all very good advice, and
I’ll follow it.
If I may follow up–fingering
the flute is hard. I can
play fast stuff on low whistles
but my fingers are flopping
around on the flute,
especially my left
hand on account of the
way the flute is held.
How long before one
can play fast? Thanks again, Jim
On 2002-11-09 12:03, jim stone wrote:
I think that Jessie’s estimate of about one year makes good sense. You can be awful on the street.
Hey, I’m not awful!
How long before one can play fast?
If, by play fast, you mean have all of the quick notes sounding right, it took me about 2 years. I am not as rhythmically deficient as I used to be.
[/quote]
I’m in about the same position, and have the same view, as Doc. When you’re starting out, or returning, to flute, there will be good days and bad. It’s amazing how much more complex getting a good sound out of a flute is when compared to whistle or sax (my other instruments…actually, sax is a former instrument).
I’ve stopped and started the flute several times over the past 10 years, but this is the first time I’d say I’m absolutely obsessed with it (my wife would second that opinion). I practice between 45 minutes to and hour and a half each day. I’ve been going at this rate for about a month now, and I’m not slowing down. Just like Doc said, some days I sound great while other days I sound terrible, but I will say I sound much better more often (ie - my embouchure has improved greatly) than I used to.
Perhaps the biggest piece of advice for embouchure consistency I picked-up from Loren, and that is to stick with one flute until you get a really good embouchure going. Personally, I have 4 flutes I’ve picked-up or made over the years in an attempt to sound better (bamboo, Hall crystal, copper pipe I found at Lark in the Morning, and a CPVC I made a few weeks ago). Not surprisingly, it turned out that sticking with one flute these past 2 weeks has made more of a difference than anything. Another thing that has helped is to record myself using my computer’s microphone so I can play it back and really hear what my playing and embouchure sound like.
What has really surprised me is that with more practice, my homemade CPVC flute when I get a good embouchure going sounds as good as a lot of the flutes on the Wooden Flute Obsession CD (for brief moments only…my breath and embouchure still need lots of work). Now, if only I could get my lungs into shape so I don’t have to take those big raspy breaths too much I’d be doing OK!
Thanks again. I swim laps, which
helps.
The short answer is that you never get where you’re going – the people you’re trying to catch up to are probably moving ahead at the same speed. The OTHER short answer is, depends on how hard you work at it, if you have others around to play with, how much you listen to players you like (live or on CD), etc. Finding a decent teacher is probably your best bet, if you’re in a hurry.
The thing is, I’m as good or better than some people I’ve met who’ve played for twenty or more years (I’ve been at this instrument and style of music about 5 years), and yet, I don’t think I’m as good as any of the players I most admire. I haven’t been at it long enough, plain and simple. It isn’t just a matter of technique, but a matter of absorption, and that takes a long time – some say a life time.
I was a working musician most my life, (a guitarist mostly, taught myself silver flute toward the end), so when I switched to Irish flute, my first impulse was to learn a bunch of tunes and start gigging. I made more money on in my second and third year of playing than I do now, partly because I’m busier with other things, but also because I joined several working bands early on and now I’m concentrating more on being really good by myself. Basically, my standards went up. It’s all relative to where you are now, what you want to learn, and where you want to be down the road.
I do know that it’s easy to become discouraged IF YOU LET YOURSELF!! In fact, every day can vary ~ This past week I was especially busy at work, and simply too tired to pick up my flute for its accustomed 45 ~ 60 minutes of nightly play time. After only 3 days, I broke it out this morning for a much anticipated practice and sounded, quite frankly, like s**t. No power, weak weak weak… I played a few tunes, swabbed it out, and set it aside. I just now picked it up, and it’s awesome!
How do I account for that? Dunno.
I do, however, know the value of daily practice. Even if you don’t think you’re improving, you are in probably subtle ways. Breath strength is improving and emboucher flexibility is improving even if you don’t think so. I used to think I would never play anything but slow airs because my fingers felt so clumsy. But lately I notice my speed is increasing.
Point is, The next time you play is, well, the next time! Persistence pays off. I don’t care if I never sound like Kevin Crawford, but I will be happy if “I” sound better next November than I do right now!
But then, I’m a really patient person. That has its advantages:)
Mary
Jim,
Just curious man, how much you making on the busking circuit there in California? No busking allowed in the decent spots here in Tampa, so I always wonder how people do elsewhere.
Loren
Hi loren, I haven’t done it here.
The best place seemed to be Venice
beach–but I was intimidated by
the driving distance from Rosemead.
Also the freeways here took me
some getting used to, though I
seem to have it down. I did play
once at Venice, but not for money,
but to see if the Chieftain low D could
be heard–it could, also the
response from passersby was positive.
Whistles really cheer people up.
There was also a Bolivian (or maybe
Peruvian) trio with panpipes and
amplification, and a very odd
fellow on rollerskates in
a costume who follows
you around while playing an
electric guitar with some sort
of battery powered amp. The
odd thing is that he’s good
on the guitar,
and would probably do much
better if he just stayed put
and wasn’t a pest.
We’re moving back
to St. Louis in a couple
of weeks, and I’m looking
forward to rejoining the
Bates STreet Folk and Blues
Band. We play at a market
every Saturday and I
make about 200 a month,
which helps, frankly.
Sometimes people hire
us from the street to
do parties, rendezvous,
Eagle Scout ceremonies,
in which case I make
considerably more.
But it’s great fun
to play for people, anyway.
Loren –
I know you asked Jim 'bout CA, but in NYC busking can vary depending on the day, the hour, and (like real estate) location. If I do 2 hours in an okay spot in the subways (the best spots are taken by MTA licensed buskers) I can make $10 on a Monday and $30, same hour, on a Thursday or Friday. If you play with someone, you usually make more, strangely, 'cause people assume you’re an act that put some time into things (which is usually true), and tend to throw in more.
Busking here has declined, though, with the economy (whattasurprise!), though you can really clean up on special days (Guess which one for Irish music?)
Jim,
Dude, that roller skating guitar player dude is practically a legend! He’s been around Venice beach for years and has appeared in several major motion pictures. Well, glad to hear you’ll soon be getting back to somewhere sane…what am I saying, never mind.
Gordon,
Yeah, I guess busking ain’t what it used to be…
I used to know people who cleaned up on the Pearl St. Mall in Boulder, CO. during the years I lived there (80’s), but since there is practically zero busking here in the Tampa Bay area, I have no idea what it’s like in the outside world.
Well, thanks for the insight guys.
Loren