Higher Education

Poststructural Pub
1

Hi folks.

I wanted to start a thread about higher education because I know a lot of you folks have a degree in this or that and experience from education of all levels in your respective countries (that would be mostly US of course). It’s a topic which facinates me a lot right now for various reasons, a big one being that I’m currently facing a lot of different choices in life. Some of you may remember my thread about wanting to become a police officer, more on that later. But I’m also very drawn to the academic world right now, studying has become fun and interesting. I need to start this thread with a review of what I’m doing right now and some of my alternatives in the future, but I’m not starting this only to get more input on my situation, I’m doing it mainly to hear stories from other people. I can’t be the only one interested in this subject. So if you feel like it skip to end of my post where I have a few questions.

First a very short explanation of the swedish educational system because I know it’s quite different from the american. In Sweden we have 9 years of elementary school which is compulsory for all citizens. You typically start in school at the age of 7 and you study in three different stages of elementary school (low, middle and high- 3 years in each) until you’re 16. After that 99% of all students will continue to what is called the Gymnasium (it’s from an ancient greek word meaning a locality for both physical and intellectual education, the intellectual education is what has stuck in this case whereas the physical bit has stuck in the word “gym”). The Gymnasial education is typically 3 years. Students in the last year of elementary school apply for a gymnasium and a programme (might be science, performing arts, international studies, what ever) using their grades from elementary school. I figure the gymnasium is something in between a high school and college, I’ve seen comparisions to the american “prep schools”, but I don’t know how accurate that is. Students are typically 16-20 years old. Then after the gymnasium, many will continue on to a University. A lot of people work for a few years before starting their higher education. I think the typical age for starting University in Sweden is 21-24, some go straight from the gymnasium, but for obvious reasons University students are never younger than 19.
I’m not sure exactly how it works in the US, so perhaps someone could enlighten me?

I’m currently studying Law at the University of Örebro in central Sweden. I just started a month ago, and I’m enjoying it very much. The University of Örebro is not ranked as one of the top universities of Sweden, and it only got qualified to award the Master of Laws degree about 4 years ago. I’m not sure about the differences in degrees between Sweden and America here, but to practice law in Sweden you need a degree of Jur.kand (which I have translated, maybe falsely, to Master of Laws) which is 4.5 years of studies at one of the 6 universities that are qualified to award that degree. I’m enjoying it as I said, but I’m looking at other options anyway.

First of all I’m waiting to see if I get admitted to the police academy, they’ll inform me in mid november. To a lot of you it must seem foolish to choose a career as a police officer rather than staying in Law school, and in many ways it probably is. But the police academy in Sweden has an acceptance rate of about 4,2% these days, that’s lower even than the Juilliard school of performing arts, just to put it into perspective. I’ve been to different tests, physical and mental reviews for almost a year now because of this application. If one does get admitted, it pretty much guarantees work until retirement unless one behaves really bad. Staying in Law school would mean 4.5 years of murdering competition to land the better jobs and not even being sure about getting a job when I graduate. If I do get admitted to police academy I’ll be more or less forced to take it since it’s so extremely difficult to get in. I can get back to law school later if I decide.

I’m also thinking about continuing the Law studies but changing universities. I may have the opportunity to get into any of the other 5 universities in the coming year, and that includes two of the top universities in Europe- The University of Uppsala and that of Lund, they are the most prestigous in Sweden, and are always ranked among the top 100 in the world. The University of Uppsala is the oldest in Scandinavia, founded 1477. Hard to beat that amount of tradition. Uppsala University - Wikipedia

I got carried away. This thread was not supposed to be all about my situation. I want to know about other peoples experiences with higher education. Do you have a degree in something- what and from where? Has anyone here studied law? What are peoples thoughts about different universities, Ivy League / Coimbra ones versus less prestigious ones? In Sweden, most of the well thought of universities are public so there are students of all types there, some have the stereotype of elitism but not as much as I think there is in the US. However; Uppsala and Lund (and to some extent Stockholm) are always considered the most prestigious universities. Along with a few private institutions, most notably Chalmers University of Technology in Gothenburg.

Anyway. I’d love to hear all your thoughts and experiences. Learning is fun, and not just about
whisky :thumbsup:

2

A standard U.S. education goes like this:
Most children start kindergarten, at age 5.
Then they attend elementary school (or grade school), in grades 1 through 5.
In most areas of the country, elementary is followed by middle school, which is grades 6-8. (In some areas, grade 6 is still in the elementary school, and the next stage is junior high school, grades 7-9, but that’s increasingly uncommon.)
The last stage of compulsory education is high school, which is grades 9-12. At graduation most students will be 17 or 18.
Once a student has reached age 16, he/she is no longer legally obligated to attend school, but it is not usually considered very admirable to not at least complete one’s high school degree.
After high school many (I don’t know what percent…50%?..depends on geographics) students enroll in a university program.
Either a Community College (getting a 2-year, or Associates degree,) or a 4-year Bachelor’s degree. Another option is trade or technical school of some type. There aren’t many “good” jobs available for people who don’t have training beyond high school.
Nowadays though, even a 4-year university (college) degree doesn’t necessarily prepare you for any specific job, unless you studied teaching, or nursing, or possibly some kind of engineering. Most people who hope to enter a higher-paying profession will go on to enter graduate school. Graduate school can be medical (becoming an M.D.,) law school, a more advanced teaching or nursing degree, business, or any other subject matter…and in many of those cases you still won’t end up in a very specific career track.
A basic graduate school program conveys a Masters degree (except in specific cases, like medicine or law.)
The highest degree is a PhD, which is a “doctor of philosophy” in…whatever area you’re studying. This is desirable, and in some cases expected, for anyone who’ll be teaching at a college level. A Masters and a PhD might take 2 or more years each, depending on discipline.

It sounds like going to the Police Academy is a more prestigious career path in Sweden then it is in the U.S.
We’re glad to have a police force, of course, but choosing that path is usually an alternative to an “academic” education…so it’s more like learning a trade, such as plumbing, or electrical installation. But more dangerous. Maybe. Depends on how good an electrician you are, I guess.

3

I think you will find that most people who are admitted into the police academy, at least here in my city, have completed four years of college, usually in law enforcement/criminal justice. Of course, if you have friends or family in the police department, your chances of getting admitted into the police academy are greatly improved.

4

That’s good to know. I probably am terribly uninformed about this and am basing what I said on impressions formed in a different era.
Come to think of it, I do know that one of my daughter’s friends had entering the police force as a post-college plan.

5

In the USA one can practice law without going to
law school. You pass a Bar Exam, which proves you know the law well enough to practice.
This is very hard to pass, everyone who wishes to practice in a state must pass that
state’s exam.
So some people are practicing law who never went to law school. In principle
you could practice law with only a high school degree, without ever going
to college.

However there are excellent reasons to go to a law school, obviously.
Especially if one wants to work for a law firm.

I think the law is fascinating and I wish I knew more about it.
One thought I have is that the mind stays young longer than the
body. Indeed, it grows stronger if one uses it. I’m not sure
I would want to be a policeman at 55, though maybe there
would be something good to do. Right now I’m studying with
a superb philosopher in his 70s. Top of his form.

Also one observation: from what I see in the USA, the prestige of one’s
law school makes a big difference in how good a job one gets.
Same goes for graduate schools in general. People coming from
prestigious schools in any field tend to get better jobs (more
interesting work, less drudgery, more money). Also
they often get a better education.

So if it were me I would see about transferring to a first-rate school.

Obviously one aspect of the situation is what the prospects of work
really are for these respective professions. I take it getting police
work is a sure thing if you are accepted to the academy.
What are the prospects of good work as a lawyer?

It’s very hard to generalize from person to person and from country to country, of course.
Personally (and FWIW) I would look at what I will be in middle age and consider
what my life will be like in law vs. police work. Which would I prefer?

If I chose law (and I would, because I think law is interesting) it would of course
depend on the likelihood of good work. Even if police work is certain after
the academy, I would go for law IF I preferred it and the chances of work
were good.

Then, if I chose law, I would do what I can to go to the best school I can.

Of course even if I can’t go to the best school, the prospects may be good
enough from a less good school to warrant staying with the law. And deficits
in education can be made up once one is practicing. Education doesn’t
end with schooling, obviously.

Hope this helps.

6

In my community the police department typically only looks at candidates with at least a Bachelors, the police academy is still too short but that is changing for the better, as are standards for passing. Our former police chief had a PhD as do many of our current higher level officers, I personally think biologists, especially field biologists, make some of the best detectives.

One of my closest friends is an attorney with masters degrees in plant physiology and genetics. His work has taken him all over the globe and his has met some of the greatest scientists of our time and has often read their work before it is even published, sometimes whether they wanted him to or not. But he also loves the law and even worked as a PD, voluntarily, for some years before switching to patent law.

I find enticing prospects in both career choices, but you should always follow your passion.

7

My own educational background - 2 years at a community branch of a local university which got me an associate degree. Started working full time, then went back to a different college of the same university in the evening to get my bachelor degree. AS was in Science Technology (biology and chemistry) BS is Natural Science (biology, chemistry and horticulture with a psychology minor).

While our local police force has an academy, most of the cadets that enter it have four year degrees or have had careers in other areas first. It’s very rare now adays for a cadet to be right out of high school, although technically that is possible. One does have to pass the academy to be considered for a job on the force.

I don’t think you can be a state patrol officer (a little different than a city police officer) without a bachelors degree.

We know a lot of lawyers and judges, and as far as I know all of them have college degrees.

8

Most states require law school to take the bar exam, and in practical terms it’s not possible to practice law without law degree “in the USA.” Certainly not a course that any young person could or should take today. The Bar exam is not very hard to pass (except perhaps in California).

I would switch to Uppsala. Well respected school, with significant presence in legal philosophy and law & economics.

jur.kand translates as JD (or Juris Doctor) in the US these days. Used to be LLB, or Bachelor of Laws, but because you also get a bachelor after college and law school is grad school, they changed it so that lawyers in government service could get paid at a higher level than plain “bachelors.”

Law and law school is very different in the US from what both are like in Europe, as far as I know.

9

I understand the bar exam in Louisiana is a somewhat different animal altogether.

10

The Louisiana legal system is an oddity in the US, since it is based on a “civil code” rather than on common law. Civil codes characterize the legal systems of continental Europe (and most places in the world), and are different from the English Common Law that formed the historical root of the law of the other US States. Tricky stuff, though. In practice, Louisiana’s law is at best a hybrid system with a very strong methodological influence played by the common law. A little more info at Wikipedia, but take it with a grain of salt.

Law in the State of Louisiana is based in part on civil law. Louisiana is unique among the 50 U.S. states in having a legal system partially based on French and Spanish codes and ultimately Roman law, as opposed to English common law.[1] Louisiana thus follows the system of most non-Anglophone countries in the world.

For example, the Spanish codes are based on the French, which in turn are only partially based on Roman law (the other part being supplied by Germanic legal traditions that were in effect in the North of France in the 18th century). And of course the Common Law is significantly based on the Roman law, particularly in its historical procedural approach. It’s also too strong to say that Louisiana follows the system of other (pure) code-based countries, and is more properly grouped with hybrid systems such as they exist in Scotland, South Africa, Israel, and Quebec. As a side note, the Code Napoleon was never in effect in Louisiana.

The Louisiana bar exam is marked by its unusual (for the USA) length and by the fact that it doesn’t use the Multistate Bar Examination, a daylong multiple-choice test administered in most if not all other states.

11

I did a mechanical engineering degree in America and a postgraduate linguistics degree in the UK; if you want any information on either of those please PM me, I’d be happy to share. :slight_smile:

I haven’t studied below postgrad level in the UK but I do work at a UK uni now so I know a bit about the path most students take (there are several different routes for the teenage years), at least from about 16 onward. I’m sure UK-educated chiffers will weigh in on anything I’ve omitted or gotten incorrect.

UK students have two rounds of major examinations before they reach university. At about the age of 13 students choose a range of subjects that they wish to specialise in. These are called GCSEs (also known as O Levels) and culminate in examinations at the age of 16. (If you’ve read the Harry Potter books, these are the inspiration for the OWL exams.) Students have the option of leaving school at the age of 16, and some students will do that, particularly if they are going into a trade or have lined up an apprenticeship.

Other students, who wish to continue their studies till at least age 18, will choose their next round of subjects to specialise in. These are called GCEs, or A-Levels (Or NEWTs in the Wizarding World). These subjects have to be the same subjects as the GSCEs, but there will be fewer - so someone might do 8 or 10 GCSEs but 4 or 5 A-Levels. The students who apply to our university have typically done three or perhaps four A-Levels.

The A Levels are done in two parts, each lasting one year, with an exam at the end of each year. The first year of a subject results in an AS level exam (age 17). You can either keep the AS as a qualification in its own right or build on it in the second year with the A2 exam - the two together in the same subject creates one full A Level. Students can also opt to not take the A2 in a particular subject and instead spend that year taking another AS in a different subject that they got an O Level in.

So a student could finish at 18 with 3 A Levels in Maths, Physics, and Biology, for example, or if they didn’t really like one of the topics, or wanted to diversify, they could have A Levels in Maths and Physics and AS Levels in Biology and History, or something like that.

Once they’ve finished these, if they decide to go to university they will usually doa three year undergraduate course. Our uni also offers one year Foundation courses and four year Extended Undergraduate courses, but the standard is three years for a regular degree.

12

Thanks for the replies. Interesting stuff.

Bloomfield- you sound very conversant with swedish law and education. How come?
I’m very thankful for your feedback, it’s a great help. I hope I do get into Uppsala this spring. Do you have any opinion about The University of Lund?

Now I want to hear more about peoples academic experiences. Again- this thread was primarily not about me getting feedback on my situation. I want to discuss university life more.

On a different topic, yesterday I was at a big whisky fair, and due to a consumption of quite epic proportions yesterday I think it will take a few days before I even look at another bottle of
whisky :stuck_out_tongue:

13

Well, I have a Bachelor’s (4 year college degree) in Animal Science. Most people use this degree as a pre-veterinary school course of study, or their intention is to take over the family farm. I did it because I couldn’t think of anything else I wanted to do at what was, for me, a very young and unformed stage of life.
I have not done post-grad school per se, but I have spent 4 semesters at the Community College acquiring Spanish, and am on my 2nd in Japanese, which all leads me to wonder why I did not have enough sense to make languages the emphasis of my college education in the first place. Well, I was a lazy, underachieving, kid without a compass. That’s why.

14

Doctorate in philosophy, The University of Colorado, Boulder, 1982. I was 40.
It was OK. I lived in the American Youth Hostel. I was a runner and Boulder
was swell for that–trails in the mountains. In my last year, writing my dissertation,
I got a fellowship without a residence requirement. I picked up and
moved to Cambridge Mass, walked into the philosophy dept at MIT
and said: "i’m funded, teach me!’ They did. Next semester I did
the same thing at Harvard. People were really smart.

I’ve kept studying. I’m retired and my wife, KO, also a philosopher,
gets half-sabbaticals every 2 and 1/2 years and we pick up
and go somewhere very good and become ‘visiting scholars.’
No money but we sit in on seminars and become part of the
intellectual life of the department. We try to find great
departments in nice areas with affordable housing.
So far we’ve been to University of Southern California in LA,
to Brown in Providence, to Notre Dame, to the University of
Arizona at Tucson. Now we’re at the University of North
Carolina in Chapel Hill. We spend a semester.

So the educational thing doesn’t end and it’s fun to pretend to be
a grad student again. We have very friendly relations with grad students,
many of whom are like intellectual puppy dogs who will surpass us
one day, but not yet. Sometimes, though, they’re too afraid
and insecure to be friendly.

Also we go to conferences.

It seems to me that if one enjoys study and learning, that it’s a good idea to
arrange a life where one can keep at it. The mind sure can go on longer
than the body and we often meet decrepid old scholars and hear them give a
talk and we realize they are young. Age helps at scholarly disciplines;
it’s easy to sit still longer.

Also like to publish articles in journals. Very hard to do, lots of rejections,
but it can be very satisfying. Retirement just means I no longer meet
classes. I’m as active as ever at the part of the discipline I most
value. I still have my university affiliation, put it on my articles,
but I haven’t been there for a decade.

There are three good philosophy departments in St. Louis, where I live usually,
and I go there, sit in on seminars, attend public lectures,
and harass the grad students, too.

15

emmline- Thats an interesting story. I know how it feels to be lazy and without motivation. I felt very much like that when I was in the Gymnasium (I graduated 2006, for an explanation on gymnasium see my original post). I had mediocre grades at graduation. Luckily we still have a system here which allows students a second chance, even though our current government is trying hard to change that. I’ve never been more motivated to study than I am right now so it’s good that we do get a second chance to get into the really nice schools using other things than our grades from the gymnasium. I got into law school at Örebro University using my score from a big test they run twize a year to determine ones capability to study at a higher level, and I’m applying to Uppsala using that test as well. I just need to improve my score slightly in october to get into Uppsala.

Jim- How was Harvard, besides the fact that people were really smart? There are two universities that I dream of some time study a semester at as an exchange student; Harvard and Oxford. Uppsala University has an exchange programme with Harvard so it’s not impossible (just very improbable).
It sounds great that you keep visiting universities. I think I can understand why, even though I’ve just started my academic life. Universities are fascinating institutions, so much wisdom.

And I think the University of Glasgow has lots of courses about
whisky :heart:

16

Well, we go to stay up to speed. The field keeps changing. We go where new ideas are breaking.
Also we need to run with a fast pack to run as fast as we can.

Also we try to go to nice or interesting places to live. Before I retired I taught in Innsbruck, also
for a year in India.

Some of the best universities are not very happy places. At Harvard the students were self-driven to
be the brightest and the best. People were extraordinarily bright but they often had no lives,
they were grinding away, no social skills. Sometimes universities are like great machines
crushing the intellectual juice out of people. But they crackle with energy.

On the other hand universities can be pretty nice
places. But I would gladly go back to any of them.

I do think you should arrange to go to the best you can.
You do get a better education.

Of course what most matters is what your life will be like after you leave university,
cause that’s where you will spend most of your years. So it’s a good idea
to go to the university that best prepares you for the best position
you can get in the field of your choice. In the USA a university’s
prestige can make a big difference in that regard. Especially at
the professional or graduate level.

17

Ah, it all starts to make sense now. I was confused about how much the american college resembled the swedish gymnasium, even though the gymnasium is the level below the university here. If I understand this correctly, most americans will go on from highschool to get an “undergraduate” education at a university and then maybe continue towards higher education. This is where it differs- our universities don’t have undergraduate educations. When we go to the university we don’t engage in general studies during the first years and then major in something, we do that in the gymnasium. I’m studying my first semester at the university now, and I only study law. I’ll do that for 4.5 years divided into different courses and nothing else and then I’ll get the degree. It’s similar with other courses. I always figured the gymnasium was not highschool (as it’s sometimes translated). If I understand this correctly it’s basically the first 3 years of college, maybe at a slightly lower level.

Too bad it’s only your educational system which is this complex and not your
whisk(e)y :stuck_out_tongue:

18

I see. Here we have grade school, the first six grades, followed by three years of junior high school,
followed by four years of highschool. For most Americans that used to be all the education
they received, but after WWII most everybody began to go on to four years of college
or university. This was because the returning troops received free tuition to go to
college. At the end of this you get a bachelors degree.

Then, if you wish, you do graduate work, leading to a professional degree, a masters degree
or a doctorate. That can take another five or six years or even more.

I speak no German and when I taught philosophy in Innsbruck (the Jesuit Theology Faculty of the U of Innsbruck)
there was some concern that I wouldn’t be understood in English. However it turned out that
the students understood English very well and that high school students in Austria write English
better than most graduates of American universities.

The University level education I saw in Austria was less good than in the USA, at least in philosophy,
but the students were much better educated over all because what preceded was so much
better than what we have here.

After it became routine in the USA for everybody to go to University, the universities hired lots of faculty,
built lots of buildings. They were getting a lot of money from the government, so that we
could compete with the Soviets (Sputnik scared us half to death).

That money largely dried up, finally, and so student tuition was crucial. Meanwhile students (after
the wave of returning soldiers went through) were entering
university without adequate preparation who weren’t much interested in education; they were there
because they didn’t know what else to do. As the universities had to keep students who couldn’t
do the work, just to stay funded, or start firing faculty and closing down buildings, the universities dumbed down
to keep enrollment up. So university education in many (not the best
but many) universities became much less good than it was before WWII.

Meanwhile many states had ‘open enrollment,’ which required state universities to accept any
high school graduate, no matter how poor the grades. This was meant to let minorities
into the universities who otherwise would not get in. So many universities were
inundated with illiterates, as the high schools and grade schools for minorities (which had been segregated
for a century), weren’t teaching much. At my university we lost half the freshman
class the first year, every year. And there were vast programs in remedial education,
which didn’t help. Too late.

Meanwhile the marginal students who survived often went into education,
one of the less demanding programs. Graduating an undemanding program
(in a dumbed-down university) functionally illiterate, they were hired to teach in high schools and grade schools,
where they were protected by powerful unions. So education spiraled downward,
with increasing less well prepared students entering universities that could
not afford to turn them away. Not everywhere and not at the best schools,
but in many universities. At my university a large minority of graduating
seniors couldn’t write a grammatical English sentence.

So where we are good, we are very good, and where we are not so good,
I think we are generally a lot less good than Western Europe.

19

:confused: ah…that gets ya 13 years outta 12 Jim

Yer confusing buildings with levels
I grew up in a 6-3-3 system. That’s Elementary-Jr. high-High…however the 3rd year of Jr. high counts as freshman high school

20

Hi Jim

Your Darwinian process sounds like what happened when I started university (Strathclyde - Theoretical Physics in 1973). You got thrown in at the deep end and sunk or swam depending on how much you were willing to work - my first year had a 64 percent drop out rate and all the survivors of that year graduated.

David