I have no idea what this ornament is called. Its like a flutter with the tongue or back of the throat. PJ Monserott does it but he didn’t know what I was talking about. Its in this video at 0:21 seconds and 00:34, 00:37… hear it? I don’t know what it is.
video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kjj9gBw3pO4
Thanks! Sorry if you can’t figure it out. Just don’t know what it is.
It’s no tonguing, but a compound roll (best term I can think of) of some kind.
I am pretty sure it is tonguing because I sometimes do the same sort of thing. In my case it is an imitation of a fiddle technique, a bowed “treble” where the third note is not the same as the first two.
So at 34 seconds in your video, instead of playing BABc# as you might expect, your man is doubling the B and playing B/B/ABc# - two sixteenth-note Bs (semiquavers) with all the other notes remaining eighth notes (quavers). The two initial Bs are tongued and the A might also be tongued, or not.
This device is used by a lot of Irish fiddlers but few whistlers it would seem.
Thanks! Thats very helpful!!
Is it hard to do? I haven’t tried it yet.
TinWhistler is a member here on C&F maybe he could respond.
And, just to mention from my newbie-ish level of play, I’ve experienced fingers bouncing, jittering, shaking all on their own accord… unexpectedly, unintentionally, and perhaps uncontrollably. Whether it’s a plus or minus depends upon one’s perspective about the tune. The sequence or movement may not be repeatable… may be a reflex.
Well, no, it’s not hard - once you can do it. 
Assuming that I have correctly diagnosed the ornament being played. And if I haven’t, well what I have described is a handy trick, if you want to emulate fiddle players, or if you like an especially busy sound. (I use it sparingly.)
Actually the most important thing is to first to hear what is going on. Otherwise you’ll just be lunging in the dark as it were.
Probably best accomplished with a ta-ka-ta or diddle-dee tongue movement. And it might be easier to practise this technique by “trebling” the same note before you start complicating it with a change to a different note.
Looks and sounds like an ordinary short roll on E, to me, if that’s what you mean.
Non-Irish-trad wind players, who are used to doing most of their expressive devices through manipulation of the air-stream, often project that onto the trad Irish wind music they hear, where most of the expressive devices are done with the fingers on a flowing air-stream. On the other hand, coming from trad Irish fluting and piping as I do, I will tend to do the opposite and hear things as having a digital origin.
Anyhow I think I can see his finger-movement (or am I imagining it?) and what I see is the standard short roll on E
xxx oxx (lower-hand index finger “cut” on E)
xxx xxo (first E note)
xxx xxx (“pat”)
xxx xxo (second E note)
He’s tonguing the “cut” which is rather common on whistle.
I would use the upperhand ring finger for the cut, usually, but I think I can see his lowerhand index finger moving, so I diagrammed it that way.
Whether or not this particular guy is doing this the way I diagrammed it, the standard “short roll” on E is what most trad Irish fluteplayers, whistle players, and pipers would perceive and play in that context, and if you’re a learner I would learn it that way initially.
Here’s a very basic video where I show cuts and pats
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nfu_fDUyNHs
Here’s putting all that stuff together in a jig
Richard and I are talking about different bits. For clarification, the things I am describing occur at 0:22, 0:34 and 0:38 seconds on my screen.
Thanks, I see now what you mean.
Yes it sounds like triple-tonguing on B, yes?
I’ve done that, what I do isn’t proper “triple tonguing” (in the “classical” sense) but doing a rolled R (like Spanish rr) which gives a very rapid triplet-thing. The trick is co-ordinating it with the finger action.
Classical triple-tonguing alternates “t” and “k” like “tuh-kuh-tuh” or “too-koo-too” (there are many variations but the idea is to alternate the front of the tongue and the back of the tongue, you can feel it when you say tuh kuh tuh kuh tuh kuh tuh kuh).
About stuff like that, I prefer the traditional whistle style.
Hi there,
I’ve just gone to listen to both of the above, and I’m getting an horrendous background noise on both which makes them very hard to listen to. Am I the only one, or is this on the original recordings?
Max
I can’t tell for sure, might be just finger rolls or triple-tonguing, or in combo with fingers.
As to traditional or not…
I’ve heard some people suggest that the whistle should imitate the pipes. Is that really more traditional? Why shouldn’t the whistle try to imitate the fiddle (to the extent possible)?
I feel you should use the expressive techniques available to the instrument at hand. A fiddle player uses a variety of bow movements to separate or slur notes together, or present dynamic energy. A whistle is lacking the bow arm, but can use breath, fingers and tonguing to approach some of the fiddle’s expressiveness.
I don’t get any background noise on either recording, so I think it must just be you. 