Has this been brought up before? If so, I guess I missed it, but here it is again, then, just in case:
I just discovered that the radial position of the headjoint has a definite effect on the intonation of A in relation to the bottom D. If rotated inward too much, the A will be relatively flat, and outward too much, the A will be relatively sharp. Yes, all notes will be sharper or flatter according to outward or inward rotation, but I find that the intonation relationship of the A to the D itself is affected, too, and that there’s a “sweet spot” for that relationship. Very interesting, and helpful to me. Anyone else noticed this before, or posted on it? If so, please gimme a “Like, duh.”
Sorry, not only do I subscribe and adhere to the “One Flute” philosophy, I also have a “One Radial Headjoint Position” policy as well, and I’m not breaking that just to help prove some cockamamie theory you’ve constructed whilst in low blood glucose haze.
Take your insulin, eat a few M&M’s, and the world will all start to make sense again shortly my friend.
Neither glucose, nor caffeine, are at issue here. If ever you’d ask Royce about my special “hypercoffee” (which has loads o’ both, and you don’t even want to think about the serving size), you could lay that theory to rest.
I do have a pretty sensitive sense of relative pitch, seriously (seriously), and I just happened to notice the phenomenon. I, too, am in the “one position only” camp, but previously that position was based on tone alone. Now, the position that gives me the relative intonation that I want while giving the tone I want, is that one position. You CAN have the best of both worlds.
Again, though, maybe it’s a phenomenon of the flute itself. Like you, I have no others with which to make a comparison.
Well, looking at it, the position it’s at NOW (I’ve got the Eb body plugged in right now, so the D body may make a difference. Yes, I could have said “Eb” and “Bb” instead of “D” and “A”, but work with me, here. Y’all know what I’m getting at. Besides, I’m a piper, too. We always refer to the D compass regardless of our actual pitch. So there.) is that the far edge of the cut is just the barest hairsbreadth inward from the center line of the toneholes, which is pretty much in the ballpark for what I used to do in the past. I imagine that it’s a case of different flutes, different players, different positions, so I would suggest that anyone trying this go by ear, not someone else’s positioning.
In this case I went by ear, as that’s what’s most reliable for me. I just sounded the D and the A alternately until I found the spot that sounded right. The A note on my Noy always seemed a bit too capricious, and now I believe I have a better grip on the situation. YMMV, of course.
I suspect that slide extension would affect the positioning, too. Haven’t tried that yet.
I suspect that slide extension would affect the positioning, too. Haven’t tried that yet.
You know, I’ve found that when I move the slide in, all the notes get sharper, and when I move it out, they get flatter…just trying to help since you’ve never tried that yet.
Nano, I am genuinely interested in your experiments and I hope Terry McGee will read this topic and comment.
I am taking my D blackwood Seery out today for the first of 8 two hour practise sessions over the next 4 days. I will test your thingie with a Korg tuner.
On my Tipple Eb (PVC) which is at hand
(and without warming up the flute or me):
Eb “447” / Bb “454” (finger hole axis with emb. hole axis )
Eb “447” / Bb “454” (f.h. axis thru top 25% of emb.)
Eb “444” / Bb “449” (f.h. axis at top of emb.)
Eb “443” / Bb “447” (f.h. axis 25% above top emb.)
This is my reading with the Korg tuner
and no extension with the slide.
Talasiga, my tuning slide is out at a fairly usual position (about 7/16 of an inch - what’s that in metric?).
I habitually go by ear, so I don’t have a tuner and can’t give such hard figures, but as I mentioned, I have strong relative pitch sense. Not to boast, but for what it’s worth, I’ve had people compliment me on how well I can bring my cittern into tune with itself and with others into the bargain. Trust me, with five double courses, it can be a challenge. So, I’m pretty sure I’m not imagining things with the flute situation.
I don’t question that you are experiencing what you say you are. I simply chalk it up to the player, rather than the instrument.
I’m at a loss to come up with any reason that rotating the HJ, from a purely hardware (flute physics) point of view, would cause exactly what you’re describing - sharp one direction on the top note, flat in the other direction, with everything else unaffected.
Okay, if anything, I would expect the top note to be more affected, than the rest of the scale, for several reasons I won’t delve into for lack of time, but I wouldn’t expect the note to go sharper one direction, and then flatter when you rotated the head the other, unless it’s the player causing the deviations.
If we assume for a moment that it is not the player, then I must ask: Is your flute warped? Ovaled? Is the embouchure hole on the downwind side undercut asymetrically?
Who knows, perhaps Terry has run into this exact event and he’ll comment. I’m unfamiliar with it, but more important, I just couldn’t skip all the opportunities to rib ya, nano dude.
Yes James you gave it a shot but didn’t include the A in your target.
The primary comparison reference here (if I read Nano rightly) is the first and perfect fifth. I think that is an important reference. I think that the “perfect” of a perfect fifth is an important litmus test.
BTW the relationship is “perfect” on my Whittier bansuris
eg:-
large C# bansuri (flute that is a semitone lower than Irish D flute)
C# “440” G# “440”
and with classical bansuri tonic at XXX OOO
F# “440” C# “440”
F bansuri (flute that is 2 semitones higher than an Irish Eb flute)
F “440” C “440”
and with classical bansuri tonic at XXX OOO
Bb “440” F “440”
Exactly. Very much a possibility. But I have to say that the Noy is less forgiving in fingering than other flutes I’ve had as far as having the truest possible pitch per note goes - I really have to take care when covering unplayed holes as I don’t tend to anchor with the pinky - and so I wonder if the embouchure itself might not have a similar sensitivity. But, as you say, I’m part of the equation.
Just to be clear, I was referring to relative sharpness or flatness of the fifth interval only in relation to the bell note. I didn’t investigate other notes. They don’t tend to get my notice nearly as much. And although I didn’t mention it in specific, I did assume that the bell note changed, what with rotation doing what it unarguably does; but notable to me was that the relationship between the two notes seemed to change, too.
To the best of my ability to tell, the human side of the equation remained the same whatever rotation I tried. But I’m not ruling out that it still might be due to me; perhaps the shape of the mouth cavity, or a feature of my lips.
-Nope.
-Nope.
-Doesn’t look like it.
I hope he will. And I’d be disappointed if you had passed them up.
