having children

Poststructural Pub
21

Izzy, you have a double-digit’s worth of children? Like 10? Holy cow!

I think whether people choose not to have children, give birth to children, or adopt children is a personal thing. There are personal, religious, biological, all sorts of reasons why people make their choices. I think it is a choice that shouldn’t be commented on because you have to be in that person’s shoes to understand the choice. So, no, I certainly would not call someone selfish for giving birth to children rather than adopting them.

I have no children and have chosen not to adopt children—that could also be seen as selfish by some since financially we could support children in need.

I believe, possibly incorrectly, that average family size has dropped in this country and that is the statistic that really matters—the average. I think that many more people would like to adopt children than are able to for various reasons----it can require a huge expense up front which people who could afford to support child cannot get together.

22

So now it’s “selfish” to want to propogate one’s own genes instead of cleaning up everyone else’s messes?! :roll:

That aside, adopting is not easy. I currently know at least two families who recently adopted because they could not have children of their own. Both went through years of what can only be described as abuse at the hands of various social agencies before they were finally approved for adoption.

My kids are all grown and I’ve no intention of having more - but I’d laugh at anyone who tried to get me to go through months or years of hell to adopt when fathering my own is both fun and easy… :laughing:

23

I’m with you there. I have only one child, and discovered that while I love her dearly, I found her much more interesting after she learned to talk. Babies (in my own experience) are pretty boring. And they are who they are, and no amount of standing around and swearing that (for example) “I won’t have a girly-girl” will guarantee a tomboy.

I’m sure I’ve said somewhere else on the forums that I’d like to propose a simple qualifying test for parenthood: raise and train a well-behaved, obedient dog. If you’re incapable of enough love and discipline to be pack leader for a dog, how on earth are you going to raise much more intelligent children to healthy adulthood?

So, have all the bright, polite children you care too–whether you bore them yourself or not.

And Izzy, if I had been behind you in the grocery line, I hope I would have demanded a word with the manager about the rude behavior of the clerk.

M

24

As an adopted child myself, I can tell you one other barrier (in addition to the expense and the extreme process one has to go through in order to be approved), and that’s the current environment that gives so much power to the biological parents.

When I was adopted, the adopted child became in every legal sense possible a member of the adopting family. Even an amended birth certificate was awarded, naming the adoptive parents as the adopted child’s actual parents. The biological parents agreed to let the child grow up securely in the love of the new family, and didn’t constantly try to reassert their “rights” to the child.

These days, unless you adopt from overseas (and there are serious problems that come with that too…many children adopted from countries such as China, Russia and Romania, the three most common countries for overseas adoptions, have been negelected to the point where they have serious mental and physical problems), adoption simply means a very expensive route to sharing a child with someone else…if you’re lucky and the biological parents don’t have a change of heart and take your child from you entirely. It’s heart-wrenching…for the parents and yes…for the child. Is it any wonder people quail at the idea of going through all that?

My own mother, who loves me to pieces, called me in tears after the latest “child awarded to biological parents” fracas and told me that she would never have the courage to adopt in this day and age. And this is a woman who adopted TWO children. She said she couldn’t bear knowing that her children could be torn from her the second some court decided that the “rights” of the biological parents outweighed the well-being and security of the child…and I can’t blame her. When I was little, knowing I was adopted, the one sense of security I had was my mother’s reassurance that I was HERS and my father’s, legally as well as morally, and that no one could ever take me away from them. Adoptive parents can’t make that promise anymore.

Redwolf

25

I want to coordinate a group-hug for Mama Izzy but I do take exception to above. There are many things this country does to combat hunger, privately and officially, teach other countries’ poor to help themselves and so on. I don’t know why you think they don’t. Even our Chris Laughlin is or was over in Africa somewhere doin’ good works. For some reason, the fact that Bush pushed to release African countries’ debt didn’t get mentioned here…I guess it was a prelude to the G8 or something…

Best to you and all the little Izz-lings.

26

My aunt and uncle have adopted two little girls from China. My brother has talked about adopting from Russia (he travels there regularly for work). One of my best friends is adopted and informed me that “adopted kids are the best!” :smiley:

Personally I would absolutely love to adopt, for reasons that I don’t care to make public at this moment. A few of my friends are dead set against it, because they’ve heard “horror stories” of fosterings or adoptions gone wrong, and they conclude that all kids that are up for adoption are horrible little maladjusted children out to ruin lives. That’s not true - you could make the same argument for marriage. Some of them turn out to be awful, so why should anyone try it at all? I don’t buy it.

You know Doc Jones here on the board? I’ve been lucky enough to meet his family. He’s got thirteen kids. Nine of them are adopted. He and his wife are counted among my heros. See here</a](http://irishflutestore.com/about.html">here</a)> for a photo of the clan.

I don’t know anyone personally who has fostered or been fostered, but I think it could be a really cool thing to do when I am retired.

27

Such a happy looking family! And instrument for every child. :slight_smile:

And I’m sure Patrick and his wife would agree that every single one of them are “of their own kind.”

You can barely see LoriAnn, buried by all those children! :laughing: :stuck_out_tongue:

28

This is off topic but I have to respond to this remark. Six years ago I was in a position where I had to move from the place I was renting (a very nice duplex). I wanted to stay in the same area so my daughter could finish high school at the same school. Because there was no home I could afford to buy in that area and I couldn’t find an apartment where our dogs would be allowed, I bought a mobile home - a trailer - in a very nice mobile home park.

Our home is older but has been kept up nicely and is much nicer than many apartments I’ve lived in. I’ve got a two-car carport, a covered deck and patio, and a pretty little fenced yard - just the right size - with trees, shrubs, flowers, and a vegetable garden. Most of the homes in our park are landscaped very nicely and the park goes after anybody having a junky looking place. There are all kinds of people living here - some have been here for years, some are temporary while saving money for a “real” home. There are retired folks, policemen, construction workers, nurses, government workers…very few of what you would think of as having a “trailer park gene.”

Within a few blocks outside this park I walk past many homes that are nice and beautifully landscaped, some that are so-so, and some that are really trashy–trashier than any of the homes in the park where I live.

I’m always embarrassed to tell people where I live because of the stereotype of the trailer owner. It doesn’t make much difference that I know that not all people who live in mobile homes are trash.

Susan

29

I fear that there are many, many people who can’t afford to buy a stationary home in today’s “frothy” housing market. And the more nice people like you and your neighbors who live in portable housing, the less appropriate the stereotype will become.

I can’t imagine Jerry Freeman would disagree, either, as he refurbishes mobile homes. Come to think of it, he’s got a bunch of kids (or at least more than I do)–wonder why he hasn’t weighed in over here?

M

30

I think Jerry has just been really busy lately and hasn’t had time to post a lot.

I’ve also lived in many trailers during my lifetime. And, contrary to the stereotype, I am not toothless, contiunally pregnant (although I am barefoot :smiley:), or uneducated. :slight_smile:

31

Well, OK then.

I thought this thread was going along fine without me.

What I see in the mobile home business is an interesting cross section of humanity.

I encounter a lot of people who have not been responsible with money and are just trying me out to see if they can somehow get a house trailer off of me.

And I encounter many decent people who have had unfortunate things happen, more often than not medical, that have damaged them financiallly and damaged their credit. Unfortunately, I can’t do much for them other than make suggestions about how to go forward to repair their credit.

And I encounter a lot of responsible people who are just getting started, are ready to own their first home, and have decided a mobile home, sometimes on property their family owns, sometimes on a rented lot in the country or in a mobile home park, is the way they want to go. Plus a fair number of seniors who are downsizing, moving closer to their kids or out to the countryside after selling the house that’s bigger than they need now. And also I encounter established working people who have lived in mobile homes for a long time and are replacing an old one.

I make each home the best I can possibly do within the constraints that will still allow it to sell at a price people can accept. My homes cost typically about half what a new one will cost, and they’re every bit as nice. It’s not unusual for a customer to tell me they went to 30 dealers before they saw my homes and decided to buy from me.

I work on them (Gary, who’s some kind of saint of a handiman does more of the hands on work nowadays while I run the business), not thinking about what it will mean to the people who eventually will live there. Selling one of these is a fairly rare event, so I forget what it’s like each time.

Then I do sell one, and the buyers remind me what a big thing it is. It’s somebody’s home, and oftentimes, it changes their lives.

This is kind of roundabout, but I guess my point is, when you only see a population of people from a distance, it’s easy to think they’re all alike. But the thing is, people are people, no matter where they are and no matter what broad category of humanity they might happen to fit.

The closer you get, the easier it is to see that there are decent people everywhere, and there are shady people everywhere. It’s got nothing to do with social status or property value, as far as I can tell.

One of the best things I ever heard was from an east Indian traditional physician who said, “My advice to you is, never think of anyone as bigger than you are, and never think of anyone as smaller than you are. Always think of everyone as just the same as you.”

Gary has fostered something like 58 kids. His son will be getting out in about a week after two years in prison for a series of DUI’s. His other son just bought a place in Tennessee where he’s moved from Colorado to take over a management job with a large construction company. Gary doesn’t talk about one any differently than the other. If I can keep things going well enough to support the payroll, his son who is just getting out will be working for me before long, alongside his father while he tries to put his life back together.

I don’t feel qualified to say much about adoption, really. I never thought I would have children at all, and it never would have occurred to me to go into adoption on my own. As it happens with many men, adopting kids was part of the package that came with the relationship with my life’s partner. I accepted that and followed Arleen into it.

I don’t have words for what the experience has been/is like, except to say that in a very real way, each of these seven children has adopted me just as much as I’ve adopted them, and they have done at least as much for me as I could ever possibly do for them.

Best wishes,
Jerry

32

Jerry, that was a very eloquent, thoughtful and very beautifully written response. :slight_smile:

33

Just as it is that not everyone who has a heart attack has the bad-cholesterol gene, so it is that not everyone who lives in mobile homes has the trailer-court gene.

34

I will approach this from a religious angle, as that reflects my beliefs on the matter. I apologize in advance to those who wish I wouldn’t.

In the beginning of Scripture we read one of the first commandments given to us was to be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth. On a surface reading, this is clear enough. It’s repeated again after the Deluge, a few chapters over.

An essential function of all life is to reproduce… to reproduce with abundance. As a whole, we are instictively (if there be such a thing as instinct) driven to it. Man and beast and plant and bacteria, alike. It is a basic tenet of physical life. It’s not a command to try to have a certain number of offspring. It’s not a command to try not to have a certain amount of offspring, but, I believe, to be content with what we are given.

Beyond the surface level, as all spiritual truth has levels deeper than the surface, and is not of any private interpretation, it speaks of being spiritually fruitful and multiplying. IOW, we are to be fruitful and multiply in good works. Not for any physical or emotional reward, but to increase in bounty, because that is the essence of the divine. To grow in grace. To grow in love toward our fellow man. Not to make our goal in life gain for ourselves, but to benefit others. Not to make our ultimate goal attempts at proselytization, but to bear one another’s burdens, as our brother man needs us, all humanity being one blood.

35

I lived in trailer houses a few times, growing up. Never in anything as luxurious as a double-wide. Once in an actual trailer park, otherwise just out in the country on my grandparents’ land, but I fit the stereotype.

36

One of the central themes of a lot of older science fiction revolved around over population. Many of the “future histories” deal with some method of population control becoming necessary. I wonder if we’ll come to a time when there are strict population control measures?

37

I believe there are strict population control measures in China now, are there not? China comprises a fourth of the world’s population, I think.

Best wishes,
Jerry

38

Yes, one child per family. Unfortunately this tends to result in an abundance of baby girls being abandoned, as culturally boys are more valued than girls. I believe my aunt chose China as the location for her two girls for this reason, although I’m not sure.

http://www.china.org.cn/english/2002/Oct/46138.htm

" I’d like to explain China’s family planning policy. China’s family planning policy is not the “one child policy” as understood by some people. The government advocates each couple to have one child in accordance with the family planning policy. However, any couple facing genuine difficulties, mainly those in rural areas whose first child is a girl, can apply for the birth of second child by going through the necessary formalities. If couples in urban areas are both the product of a one child family they are entitled to produce a second child. Besides, the policies in ethnic minority areas are actually more flexible. Since specific birth policies are set by each province according to local circumstances, the conditions vary from province to province and from city to city…"

I wonder how hard it is for rural families to go through the necessary formalities…

39

I’ll add some comments to this discussion and hopefully not offend too many.
First, I want to give Cran a pat on the back for bringing up this discussion. It can be very involved (as evidenced by the previous three pages) but it is important. It can also become very emotionally charged so I think it takes courage to bring it up.

Cran, my take on all this is very similar to yours (which is probably why I’m commenting). I have always claimed that the foundation of a number of the world’s problems is the continually growing human population. And as it continues to grow, the problems will only worsen. This is not a science fiction story line; it is a reality. Pollution, crime, poverty, environmental destruction; all these things will have greater impact as the population grows. If we could stop or even reverse the growth, we might be able to enter a stasis in some of these areas. But that won’t happen.

I just have a question for some out there and it’s not meant to be a slam or anything. I am truly curious. If you want to have lots of kids for religious reasons, what would you want if your religion said the right thing to do is only have enough children to replace you and your spouse? Would that then have been enough for you?

On the subject of adoption: foster children are difficult but that is only one type of adoption. They say that a child’s personality is basically set by the time they are 2 years old. So if you are adopting an 8 year old foster child, you could have a battle trying to counter-act that early imprinting. That said, these are probably the children who may need adoption the most (hardest to find homes for). If you adopt a baby, you can have a hand in that early development so the child’s chances are probably better.

There are a lot of hoops to jump through in adoption which can appear to act against the process. However, I have seen why those hoops are important. One of those hoops is that they require that a couple has been married for two years. I know a couple where the woman just had to have a baby NOW and she was unable to conceive. She married a man (a very nice unfortunate man) with some money who went on to try to do anything to make her happy. They lied to to the adoption agency or paid them off or something and were able to get a black baby (they are white) after they had only been married one year. One year later they are divorced and neither has the time singly to care for the child so he’s in daycare a lot. I don’t think this is what the adoption agency had in mind. The child may have many of his own quandries growing up in a mainly white community without the confusion of mutliple families.

I have never felt the “drive” to reproduce. I knew even when I was young that I didn’t want children. Since I do see the negative impacts of population growth, I cannot in good conscience add to it. But in an interesting counter to the “selfishness” of having kids, I have had it suggested that the reason I don’t have kids is because I’m too selfish. There is definitely a societal push for people to have kids and I think this needs to be tempered somewhat. Often when people find out I don’t have kids, they assume something is wrong with me. I have made what I believe to be a moral choice, just as those who have kids claim to have done.

Whew. Sorry for that diatribe. :roll:

40

I wonder if it’s a stronger urge in females. I know some women don’t have that drive, but in general maybe it is.

Yes, I think you’re right. I wish there wasn’t. I wonder what would happen to the population graph if childbearing were not pushed.
In my extended (and not always blood-related) family, I feel like the adults who’ve remained childless are as included and valued–and not pressured–as anyone. Guess that’s not always the case.