Hardwood and softwood variations in tone?

Irish Flute
1

I am looking into getting a flute made with some different types of wood like Olivewood or boxwood, and have noticed that everyone is mad about hardwoods and the better tone they give, but is this really the case?

I found a site by a native American flute maker who says it is not really true and that hardwoods are only preferable because they are more durable and resistant to damage. He said it’s all about how the flute is made.

I am not one who really goes for a very hard tone or rough tone in any case (Kevin Crawford, Conal O’Grada etc.). Will it really matter to my ear if I get a well made flute in a softwood? Surely a softwood flute with a wide bore will have plenty of volume.

2

Well, since no one else is responding . . . for what my humble opinion is worth . . .

There are a lot of folks within our flute-playing community (Native American flutes notwithstanding) who have incredibly strong biases with respect to flute materials. Cocus, blackwood, and box seem to be the most popular.

That said . . . why not get a flute out of another timber, if you prefer the look of something else? I personally think that cocus sounds the best of the flute timbers. I love box and blackwood too. But, I also feel quite strongly that (1) it’s OK to like a timber for how it looks and (2) how we think a timber sounds is just as important as how it might actually sound.

By that last, I mean that hey, psychoacoustics is incredibly complicated and you need to like your instrument. Probably, when all the cards are down, the player is 95%+ of the sound, but the instrument contributes.

The only reason not to get a softwood (like a fruitwood?) might be resale value. And yeah, more porous timbers may be maintenance problems. Olivewood is really nice-looking, though, and it smells great.

I know I haven’t answered your question, but I thought I’d offer an opinion.

Stuart

3

I have a flute made from plumwood and another one made from Satiné (Bloodwood). The plumwood flute, having a wood density of about 0.8g/cm³ (which is still quite hard for a fruitwood), has a dull and considerably mellower and quieter sound while the Bloodwood flute (1.2g/cm³) sounds just like most blackwood Prattens - loud, crispy and bright. But bloodwood is much prettier IMHO. :wink:

Hope that helps.

4

I’m all for the “How we think it sounds” idea…
After all, I’m the one playing it, aren’t I? So if it means more to me than anyone else, I’ll pick what I like

M

5

Gosh, Mary, this is what I meant to write. Do you still agree?

:smiley:

6

I think if you treated the plum wood bore with a drying oil, say tung or commercial bore oil, you would see the flute liven up quite a bit. The difference is more in porousness of the wood, that causes loss. Of course it could be the flute design itself…

7

Hmmmmmmm… let me think about that… :stuck_out_tongue:

M

8

I say go for durability - Lignum Vitae or Ipe. Lignum Vitae is so strong and hard, they make ball bearings out of it. It’s naturally oily, so doesn’t need the kind of care that most flute woods require. Tho you might be alergic to it. I know I’m not alergic to Ipe though.

What do actual flutemakers reading this think about either Lignum Vitae or Ipe for flutes?

9

I might try that. When I made it, I applied “Schnellschleifgrund” (don’t know the english word) and sanded the bore with fine steel wool after that. Then it was oiled with linseed oil (but I switched to almond oil later on).

What kind of oil would you recommend?

10

I don’t know what flute makers think about Lignum Vitae but I know it is an ironwood
and I reckon most makers value their time and their machinery.

Anyone tried imagining turning ironwood for to make a conical bore flute?
How about a tad of quick tweaking to an ironwood embouchure.
I mean lets make it quick before our tools go blunt …

11

I for to did, so I put “lignum vitae” and “flutes” into google and came up with several examples.

Hey, why for thou discussing material viability? Shouldna you be spending your time arguing about pronunciations, spellings, and/or word origens? :smiling_imp:

12

Well Tweetie Pie,
If you can pronounce on what you saw on Google , I can pronounce on what I know though it be frugal.
Yours,
Sylvester.

13

Thanks for the replies. I should have mentioned I am allergic to African Blackwood and Cocuswood. Therefore it makes sense of me to avoid rosewoods if they are closely related to the above and contain many of these “quinones” that cause contact allergy reactions.

Looking at the densities, olive wood seems to be about 0.89 while boxwood is 0.91. I have heard some nice sounds from one particular boxwood flute in the past. In my experience (I have a Bilton boxwood flute) the main restriction on the volume is how the instrument is made. My Bilton one has a narrow bore, small holes, and is quiet.

I don’t know much about this, but as Gabriel said his plumwood flute is 0.80 so hopefully if the olivewood instrument is made well I could get a nice full sound. I am not prepared to risk woods that might give me an allergic reaction. I have researched it and olivewood allergies are quite rare.

14

There are splendid boxwood flutes, no question.
All things being equal, boxwood may be less loud
than blackwood but all agree that flute construction
is the major factor and that there are loud boxwood
flutes. I think you will find that those who are gaga
for blackwood and cocus agree about this.

15

I heard it cracks easily. As far as turning it, it wouldn’t be much different then turning Cocuswood. I use carbide cutters on the lathe, cuts it like butter.

16

Get some pure Tung oil, it is cut with Citrus solvent. You might also look at your design, if there is any sharp edges in the air stream it will dull the sound, it literally chops the sound wave. So check the edges on the inside of the tone holes, and at the tenons.

17

And now a flute maker speaks.

But he hasn’t turned it and speculates on the parity between Lignum and Cocuswood but does not divulge the bases of his parable speculation.

18

I didn’t think you liked to dwell on the Specifics of different lumber:
Doug_Tipple wrote:
There are many ways to compare the materials that are commonly used for making flutes, such as density, hardness, strength and durability, appearance, etc. With regard to Irish flutes the most common materials are the hardwoods (maple, rosewood, cocuswood, boxwood, African blackwood, ironwood, and others) and various polymers, including pvc and delrin. Material density is an important physical property for these materials, as higher density materials are thought to have good acoustic properties. Anyway, searching around on the internet, I have assembled a short table of material densities. Please keep in mind that water is the standard for density, and by definition the density of water is 1.00 or one gram per cubic centimeter. Therefore, materials with a density less than 1.00 will float on water.

Maple, density .75 g/cc.
African ebony, density .96 – 1.12 g/cc.
Ironwood, density 1.22-1.28 g/cc.
PVC (poly vinyl chloride), density 1.38 g/cc.
Delrin, density 1.41 g/cc.

My motivation for doing the above search was to attempt to support my contention that polymer flutes compared very favorably with flutes made from the finest hardwoods in terms of material density. But, like I mentioned before, density is only one of the important qualities of a good flute-making material.

Comparing PVC and Delrin (Acetal):
PVC, density 1.38, Rockwell hardness R112, water absorption = .10% in 24 hours
Delrin, density 1.41, Rockwell hardness R120, water absorption = .25% in 24 hours

Please feel free to add or correct any data on this list.

You wrote…

I feel Doug that most of this scientific data will go over most of our heads.

You see Doug, I, like many others, just like to play the music and be moved in a heartfelt way.

I hardly think about these things when I play the flute or when I hear others playing.

I really don’t like to spoil my experience of the music by thinking of material densities. This may be comparable to those musicians and music lovers who get upset or defensive when certain people discuss modes/scales and melody types.

But if you must… the density of Ironwood is 1.28- 1.37g per CU CM
Blackwood can be as hard as 1.3g per CU CM
Cocuswood is harder and denser then Blackwood, so I think it is “Apples for Apples” when it comes to turning. It is a little easier turning the oilier woods, compared to the dryer woods like Boxwood. But they all have the same abrasive qualities on the tools. Actually I found Cookstown Ironwood easier to turn, though very dry.
Just my two bits worth. :stuck_out_tongue:

19

Jon, I don’t think that you should restrain your technical input to this topic on account of something I said to someone else in another technical topic and which thing was said tongue in cheek because appeared to me that the person kept making negative comments in topics I was engaged in which discussed melody types and modes and the like. In other words that was a satirical post because I used something that person said somewhere else as template for my post.

My true position on topics is that if a topic doesn’t interest you don’t come in and tell us how boring it is. That was the point of that post of mine that you have quoted from somewhere without sourcing it.

Getting back to the sub topic of ironwood, there are, to my paltry knwoledge, many timbers called “ironwood”. The question is about Lignum Vitae. Is density the only factor with regard to easy machinability? I don’t think so. You tell me. Let me know how you go machining Lignum Vitae for to make a conical bore flute with an embouchure parable to your other flutes.