I think not. You saw them on your TV screen. Probably without any context except whatever your US commentator provided.
So, do you think you’re in possession of all the facts about those scenes and how they came to be filmed?
Evidently you think Doc isn’t, but you are, right Stevie?
OK, let’s give your TV news the benefit of the doubt and suppose the people you saw dancing on your screen were fully and soberly informed of the situation. How many of them were there? How old were they? Did their reaction represent that of the majority of fully informed Iraqis and Palestinians?
You tell us, Stevie, how many were? How old were they? Enlighten us oh wise one.
Calming down…ok, I feel better now. I agree with you on about the manipulation via the media, but having been to Europe several times, from what I’ve seen it’s even worse there. Far scarier, IMHO.
All other issues set aside, they are really lucky we didn’t pave that entire part of the world with volcanic glass on 9/12.
While I don’t support the current administration’s position on the war in Iraq, I do think it’s easy to forget how much restraint the United States has shown since 9/11.
There are other countries who would not have hesitated to embark on a genocidal rampage for much less cause.
Again, how do we know they were given any opportunity to surrender, aside from press conferences by the Pentagon? There has been enough of a pattern of deception in this whole affair from the start, that I am ready to doubt anything at this point.
Don’t get me wrong, I don’t have any sympathy for any of the Husseins. But I think I agree with Claudine that what is supposed to make us different from the thugs of this world is that we have due process, or used to.
And Doc, there is NO evidence connecting Iraq to 9/11. It was another claim from our Administration that was based on false or cooked intelligence. There IS however strong evidence of involvement by Saudi Arabia who is still currently sheltering Al Quaeda cells. But WE don’t want to upset THAT apple cart.
I don’t have a problem with a bit of American self-righteousness, but it has to be applied evenly and with discernment.
I’d like to make an observation about the “dancing in the streets..”
In an elementary school classroom in Dallas, Texas, in November, 1963, when it was announced that Pres. Kennedy had been assassinated, the children burst out cheering and clapping. This is not rumor. It was reported throughout the news and I remember it distinctly because I’m as horrified by it today as I was that day. No country/people in the world (including Iraq, Iran, Saudi Arabia, and on and on…) has a monopoly on hate - or teaching it to their children.
Susan
You disagree on what basis? All the things you saw while you were there yourself? What was it you saw in Iraq that wasn’t reported by American media? Or are you speaking of things you hoped would happen, such as Americans being evil, while the Iraqi soldiers were just nice guys singing around the campfire while being killed? And of course since you didn’t see that in the news, that’s proof positive that we must have suppressed it? Cite some events and your sources for them, don’t just make nebulous claims about how innaccurate the news was.
I hate to get in the middle of something here, but I think that’s the sort of “if you disagree, you must be on their side” accusation that has so dismayed and angered those who have had problems with many of the aspects of the war in Iraq, Pres. Bush, etc. Disagreeing with the war, the reasons behind it, etc., does not mean a person is “hoping” the Americans will be the evil side nor that they believe all Iraqis are innocent.
Susan
My, my, aren’t we touchy on this… So much so that you don’t properly read my post.I disagree on your evaluation of American media vs. European media. On what basis? On the basis that I lived in Europe for 20 years and in America for 24. I am familiar with both the American and European media and I’ve been following both for a long time. I don’t so much take issue with what is being reported as with HOW it is being reported. And since 9/11, all through the war in Iraq, there has been a shift in American media to act like a cheerleader rahter than a critic. By critic, I don’t mean they have to disagree with the government or the Pentagon. I mean that they need to be critical. There is a difference.
The problem with much of the public opinion in America since 9/11 is that everything is being turned into a “us against THEM” argument. That is being encouraged by our leaders and shaped by the media.
In other words you disagree with me but it’s just a general feeling with no evidence to back up your argument?
I’m basing my statements on things like the reporting of friendly fire deaths, civilians killed by Americans, missles that missed their targets, setbacks of the American battle tactics, stories of the casualties of the Americans whether they were killed in battle or in accidents, the failure to find any WMDs… all of these things were reported in the American media. Since you claim the reporting was deplorable, I’m asking for specifics. Obviously they reported on all the previously stated negative aspects of the war, what exactly was it that you thought was deplorable? I’ve been trying to imagine what you think would be good reporting and all I could come up with was the example I used of Americans being evil and the Iraqi soldiers being the good guys. And I asked you to back up your comments with specifics, which I’m sure you would have if you had any. But you didn’t.
The manipulation of public opinion by the media through the dissemination of incomplete or distorted information is a serious business.
As it has been ever since there was a public opinion to manipulate. I doubt that the Roman soldiers who were fighting Germanic tribes were told that they were fighting generally peaceful folks whom they wouldnt have had to fight had Rome not been there.
The Chickasaw Indians supposedly settled where they did because every night the tribe would drive a pole into the ground. When they woke the next day they would see which way the pole was leaning. That’s the way they would go that day. Does anyone really believe that someone wasn’t moving the pole at night?
Manipulation of public opinion through distorted information is not a new or even western idea. I can imagine a caveman telling all the other cavemen that they should give him a share of their food because a magic bug lived in his ear.
Now, I’m not taking anyone’s side here. In the past few years I’ve come to decide that I can spend the livelong day worrying about what’s happening in the world. Or I can take care of the things that I am able to control and let the rest of the world do as it will. (As it would even if I did spend the day worrying about it.)
We are still not talking about the same thing. I am talking form, you are talking content. Very few media outlets reported on the items you cite (and as I pointed out earlier, one of them was the NY Times) in any depth. The majority concentrated on the might of the US war machine, relying on a plethora of “analysts” who were mostly Pentagon spokespeople. Almost none made a serious case of the missing WOMDs, and it is now only starting to move on the State of the Union “phantom” Nigerian uranium issue.
You need specifics, here is one. The downing of the statue of Saddam Hussein in Baghdad was widely presented in the media as an event attended and supported by many Iraqis. We needed to believe our presence there was supported by the Iraqi people. In actuality, the number of US Soldiers and Western press on that square far exceeded the number of Iraqis.
I would mail a Generation Hi-G whistle to each and every Iraqi and Palestinian child.
Just to clarify my political views for the record:
I can think of at least 10 people I would rather have as president than George W. Bush.
I voted for him because I can think of more than 47 invertabrates that I would rather have as president than AL Gore.
I think the whole pre-amble to the Iraq war was mis-handled from the start.
The gulf-war coalition signed a treaty with Hussien that we would stop shooting at him if he allowed weapons inspectors and behaved himself. He didn’t. End of story. The whole Al-quaeda / weapons of mass destruction thing is a moot point. He broke the treaty. We should have gone in and cleaned his clock the first day he kicked the inspectors out. We didn’t need the UN’s permission to enforce the conditions of our own cease-fire.
I think, in the long run, that France, Canada and Germany will be sorry that they let a few near-socialist weanies ruin their otherwise-lovely countries.
I think it is near impossible to buy a Generation Hi-D that is playable right out othe box.
I think it is such insightful political analysis and obvious knowledge of other countries’ affairs that makes us so widely popular and appreciated abroad.
It so happens that my receptionist is a Canadian and she thinks the Canadian government is full of near-socialist weanies too. Therefore 100% of my Canadian acquaintances are of the same mind.
Also, I once spoke with a real live French person, so there.
I mean, all we talked about was flutes but I still think I got a pretty good feel for the culture and all that.
I’d be an idiot to get into this debate. And certainly I won’t venture an opinion, but just from a purely sophistical stand point, I’d like to ask you this blackhawk:
If you make such a big deal of pthouron not giving more specific backing than having a first-hand, decades-long familiarity with the US and Europe, why don’t you show him how it’s done and back up your claim that “… all these things were reported in the American media.” My emphasis, of course. How do you know it was “all”? From the American media, perhaps? Specifics would be appreciated.
Just trying to help you make your argument stronger, blackhawk.
I saw all those things I mentioned in Newsweek, the San Jose Mercury, NBC nightly news, and CNN. That’s how I know all those things were reported in the American media (because I saw it in the American media). Were you trying to make that point, Bloo, or did you mean to be asking something else?
Seems to me that it is difficult to judge how inclusive or exclusive American media are by only looking at American media.
To put it more plainly, by seeing that some instances of “friendly fire deaths, civilians killed by Americans, missles that missed their targets, setbacks of the American battle tactics, stories of the casualties of the Americans whether they were killed in battle or in accidents, the failure to find any WMDs” were reported on NBC and CNN and so forth, you are not in a good position to judge what or how instances of these things were not reported.
And blackhawk, before you start telling me that the French TV is probably worse than the American TV, or something of that sort, remember that you started this little side-argument with the memorable words:
