Rather than pull up the other thread, which I have pretty mixed feelings about, I thought I’d start a new one. This isn’t just about Grey alone, but about traditional playing, tolerance, flexibility and the need to fill existing niches.
My basic statement here is that Grey is a very well-rounded musician who successfully filled a void that existed during the time he was doing his pioneering work. He’s an American, and was actively studying southern Appalachian musical traditions in the 1960s. He became an excellent fiddler, and taught lots of us about those traditions. He was also exploring Irish traditional music at a time when few on this side of the pond knew anything about it. He became a proficient flute and whistle player, and passed along what he had learned through his books and recordings. He did a great service by directing many to a lot of amazing music we might never have known about.
He isn’t my favorite ITM musician, much like Pete Seeger isn’t my favorite folksinger, Stevie Ray Vaughn isn’t my favorite bluesman, and Wynton Marsalis isn’t my favorite jazzman. But, like all of them, the world is a better place for the insights he provided. They are all pioneers.
I just don’t feel it’s fair to give him short shrift here, and hope he hasn’t been offended by the comments that were made.
Well put Crookedtune…yes to all of the above…
Some people like tea and some people like coffee…
My friend and I did a Flute Workshop with Grey at the National Folk Festival here in OZ a few years back.We found Grey to be a good teacher,a nice bloke and someone who loves his music…
I could,nt get my head around his way of aproaching the ornamentations and I went back to the way that I was comfy with,but it was still a great experience and we learnt a lot…
I too hope that Grey does’nt take offence to some of the things written in these pages in the last few days…
I don’t know much about GL, I dealt with him when he wanted one of my pictures for the big book. I have heard the track that was posted on the other thread last week, which was fine, if not in any way extraordinary or remarkable. I did read one of his papers on ornamentation that is out on the web and found some of his assumptions and statements patently misguided. I don’t like him sending me e-mails based on the assumption I am interested in everything he does. I had to bring in the spamblocker to end that.
I think when talking about impact, you will have to consider perspective. His book was not written for traditional players but for ‘newcomers’. In that light I don’t think he or his work will have had any and I mean any impact at all on traditional whistling and fluteplaying as it exists in Ireland so in that sense he has had no impact on the tradition at all.
YMMV according to where you’re based and your musical background.
I understand where you’re coming from Peter. I’m thankful for the guardians of tradition, just as I am for those who move on to new places.
Back to Pete Seeger, who you support for a Nobel Peace Prize — do you think he accurately conveys southern American banjo styles? Or were his greater contributions more akin to those of a scout in the wilderness? I say his gift was to show us the way back to our own dying traditions. That was incredibly significant, and (IMO) he’s America’s greatest living legend.
Maybe that’s more in line with what Grey was trying to accomplish. He is always quick to point out that his style is not definitive ITM, but is informed by the people he learned from. Many here in America might never have heard anything more authentic than the Irish Rovers if Grey hadn’t opened our ears to it.
I’ll accept that he may have had zero impact in Ireland.
I don’t think Grey Larson is a Seeger analogue, even if the universe is limited to Irish wind instrumentalists in North America. For that, he’d need to be a combination of Bill Ochs and Larry McCullough.
We hear nothing about it now, but for everyone not living in the south who tried to learn to play the banjo after the folk revival and before about the mid seventies, Peter Seeger’s book/record was the only tutor out there, and countless players get their start from it.
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I think that there is a school of american fluters that could be said to be forming in the wake of GL & Chris Norman. I don’t enjoy what they do as much as I do more ‘irish’ players, but it’s not awful, and is the kind of ITM that gets played on light classical and public radio*, so it’s what a great many people from out of the tradition think of as a irish flute music.
I cannot say a lot more about Grey to be honest. He does what he does and he drives it like a business. From what I have seen of Grey’s work I would probably rate Bill Ochs’ approach and work higher.
As for opening ears, we’re at perspective again and putting a rating on him depends on where you’re coming from.
I rate Pete Seeger for many things, as I said originally: fighting the good fight, making a stand for human rights, human dignity and things like that (making a few wrong political choices as well along the way) although my teenage self did get to grips with the five string banjo through a few of his books.
Since you mention Chris Norman: I would not think he would call his music ITM, and I would not either. If anything, he tries to revive Scottish flute playing, and Scottish early music.
Yes, Charlie (crookedtune), some very good thoughts you have brought up. It matters not if Grey has had much or any impact in Ireland on “The Tradition”, as that has enough support and influences naturally, to keep going on its own, I’m sure. His music stands on its own for what it is, and who it influenced, which as you say has been enjoyed and helpful here in the USA to many, and other countries also no doubt. It is unique, with American and Irish influences, as you suggested-in a niche of Grey’s own making. There is room for it all, and whether or not you like the man or his music is all up to personal tastes, like everything else.
It matters not if Grey has had much or any impact in Ireland on “The Tradition”,
I said that in response to repeated statements in the various threads about GL’s ‘contribution’ and ‘promotion of Irish Music’ and tried to differentiate his spheres of influence.
I don’t know anything about GL or ITM but I have heard a few people say, “Any publicity is good publicity.” There are many here who would love to be so well known that there would be lots of people who have opinions, negative and positive, about their music.
Now folk music, that I know. Pete Seeger is an icon and a moral authority too. I love folk music and live and breath folk music. But…if I could only choose to go to just 1 concert, or meet 1 folk icon, Pete Seeger wouldn’t be it. But if I was given tickets or he showed up somewhere, you better believe I’d sit down and enjoy myself. (I can’t remember who is alive and dead in my own extended family much less among the famous.)
I hosted a CCE sponsored workshop with Grey a few years back. I am an American and like many I used Grey’s material to help guide me through the “newcomer” years. I get that his “flute” style is not what some of us, myself included, aspire towards. I get that the guide is academic and seemingly at times pedantic, it’s short on humor and long on musings that are less charming than say…Brother Steve’s. Fair play to you.
However I’m not sure I get what you mean about Grey’s “assumptions and patently misguided statements.” Please elaborate and back up the comment with some examples and reasoning.
The website also offers numerous tips on how you the sucker! can help support his work and help increase his Fan base…yeh that’s right Fan base…
I remember having a look at his charges for mastering where he gives a breakdown and by my reckoning…he must have Bat Ears or something
I know there are people who have met him who say he is as humble a person as you can meet…but…his website information portrays something different in my view.
His website, his accountability for what’s on it…
That leaves me sadly with the impression of an inflated ego
and the drive or need to make as much money as possible
from any of his target markets
I rather think the experience of Peter Laban with the emails from
GL and the course of action he had to take, is perhaps not uncommon
‘That leaves me sadly with the impression of an inflated ego
and the drive or need to make as much money as possible
from any of his target markets.’
No, there is no inflated ego, as humble, low key and kindly a
fellow as you will ever meet. Generous too.
That leaves a need to make as
much money as possible from his target markets. What
explains it?
I trust people know enough about the history of music
and also about the economics of being an independent musician based in the midwestern USA,
dedicated to ITM,
to understand why such a fellow might need to make as much money as he can from his
target markets. Also, why he might be always on the lookout for ways
to make money, why he might send e mails to people telling them about
where and when he will be playing, why he might ask for their help
in lining up gigs.
‘That leaves me sadly with the impression of an inflated ego
and the drive or need to make as much money as possible
from any of his target markets.’
Good God that’s ungracious! It’s hard enough to make a living doing _any_thing in the arts; especially now in music during the downloading era. I can’t be arsed reading back to find out who wrote this, but the odds are that whoever it was earns a better living than Grey Larson.
I am a relative newcomer to the ITM flute scene and am appalled at what has been going on this forum. I’d say something like “I’m leaving and won’t be back”, but there is just too much good here to pay attention to a few egos.
All I can say, having met, worked with, set up a concert for, and generally gotten to know the man a bit, that some people talk about things they have absolutely NO clue about! To my relatively biased view, this forum is full of a bunch of pompous a$$#$ that fill the ether with vitriol about subjects and people of which they have very little first hand knowledge. My recommendation: shut your gob if you can’t talk from experience.
Some of what I’ve read over the past week or so concerning Grey Larsen (yes, LARSEN for a previous poster) is like reviewing a flute by listening to someone else play it or just making assumptions based on knowledge gained from the web.
