FS Rogge concert pitch boxwood chanter, 4 keys + stopkey

4 key boxwood concert pitch D chanter by Andreas Rogge with stop key. Metalwork is silver coloured and mounts are black horn. Chanter is about a year old and has been well looked after. Am selling as I just haven’t taken to it as I play in B most of the time and am looking for something with a sweeter more mellow tone. Lovely chanter all the same. Would like 1500 Euro for the chanter, which is what I paid.

Images available by email or at:
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http://img529.imageshack.us/i/roggeback.jpg/

Feel free to write with questions.

Cheers
Rob

What is the airspeed velocity of an unladen swallow?


RORY

Stupid questions=Stupid answers..here you go!!!


What do you mean, an African or European Swallow? To begin with, you need basic kinematic data on African and European swallow species.


South African Swallow
(Hirundo spilodera)

European Swallow
(Hirundo rustica)

Although 47 of the 74 worldwide swallow species are found in Africa,1 only two species are named after the continent: the West African Swallow (Hirundo domicella) and the South African Swallow (Hirundo spilodera), also known as the South African Cave Swallow.

Since the range of the South African Swallow extends only as far north as Zaire,2 I felt fairly confident that this was the non-migratory African species referred to in previous discussions of the comparative and cooperative weight-bearing capabilities of African and European swallows.3

Kinematic data for both African species was difficult to find, but the Barn or European Swallow (Hirundo rustica) has been studied intensively, and kinematic data for that species was readily available.

It’s a simple question of weight ratiosA 54-year survey of 26,285 European Swallows captured and released by the Avian Demography Unit of the University of Capetown finds that the average adult European swallow has a wing length of 12.2 cm and a body mass of 20.3 grams.4

Because wing beat frequency and wing amplitude both scale with body mass,5 and flight kinematic data is available for at least 22 other bird species,6 it should be possible to estimate the frequency (f ) and amplitude (A) of the European Swallow by a comparison with similar species. With those two numbers, it will be possible to estimate airspeed (U).

In order to maintain airspeed velocity, a swallow needs to beat its wings forty-three times every second, right?Actually, wrong. By comparing the European Swallow with bird species of similar body mass, we can estimate that the swallow beats its wings 18 times a second with an amplitude of 18 cm:

Species Body mass Frequency Amplitude
Zebra Finch 13 g 27 Hz 11 cm
European Swallow 20 g ≈ 18 Hz? ≈ 18 cm?
Downy Woodpecker 27 g 14 Hz 29 cm
Budgerigar 34 g 14 Hz 15 cm

Note that even the tiny Zebra Finch flaps its wings no more than 27 times a second while cruising.

If we ignore body mass and look only at bird species with a similar wingspan, we can estimate an average frequency of 14 beats per second and an amplitude of 23 cm:

Species Wingspan Frequency Amplitude
Budgerigar 27 cm 14 Hz 15 cm
European Swallow ≈ 28–30 cm ≈ 14 Hz? ≈ 23 cm?
Downy Woodpecker 31 cm 14 Hz 29 cm
European Starling 35 cm 14 Hz 26 cm

By averaging all 6 values, we can estimate that an average European Swallow flies at cruising speed with a frequency of roughly 15 beats per second, and an amplitude of roughly 22 cm.

Skip a bit, BrotherLast month’s article on The Strouhal Number in Cruising Flight showed how simplified flight waveforms that graph amplitude versus wavelength can be useful for visualizing the Strouhal ratio (fA/U), a dimensionless parameter that tends to fall in the range of 0.2–0.4 during efficient cruising flight.

For a European Swallow flying with our estimated wingbeat amplitude of 24 cm, the predicted pattern of cruising flight ranges from a Strouhal number (St) of 0.2:



… to a less efficient 0.4:



If the first diagram (St = 0.2) is accurate, then the cruising speed of the European Swallow would be roughly 16 meters per second (15 beats per second * 1.1 meters per beat). If the second diagram (St = 0.4) is accurate, then the cruising speed of the European Swallow would be closer to 8 meters per second (15 beats per second * 0.55 meters per beat).

If we settle on an intermediate Strouhal value of 0.3:



We can estimate the airspeed of the European Swallow to be roughly 11 meters per second (15 beats per second * 0.73 meters per beat).

Three shall be the number thou shalt countAirspeed can also be predicted using a published formula. By inverting this midpoint Strouhal ratio of 0.3 (fA/U ≈ 0.3), Graham K. Taylor et al. show that as a rule of thumb, the speed of a flying animal is roughly 3 times frequency times amplitude (U ≈ 3fA).5


We now need only plug in the numbers:


U ≈ 3fA
f ≈ 15 (beats per second)
A ≈ 0.22 (meters per beat)
U ≈ 3150.22 ≈ 9.9
… to estimate that the airspeed velocity of an unladen European Swallow is 10 meters per second.

Oh, yeah, I agree with thatWith some further study, it became clear that these estimates are accurate, though perhaps coincidental.

An actual study of two European Swallows flying in a low-turbulence wind tunnel in Lund, Sweden, shows that swallows flap their wings much slower than my estimate, at only 7–9 beats per second:

“Compared with other species of similar size, the swallow has quite low wingbeat frequency and relatively long wings.” 7
The maximum speed the birds could maintain was 13–14 meters per second, and although the Lund study does not discuss cruising flight in particular, the most efficient flapping (7 beats per second) occurred at an airspeed in the range of 8–11 meters per second, with an amplitude of 90–100° (17–19 cm).

And there was much rejoicingAveraging the above numbers and plugging them in to the Strouhal equation for cruising flight (fA/U = 7 beats per second * 0.18 meters per beat / 9.5 meters per second) yields a Strouhal number of roughly 0.13:



… indicating a surprisingly efficient flight pattern falling well below the expected range of 0.2–0.4.

Although a definitive answer would of course require further measurements, published species-wide averages of wing length and body mass, initial Strouhal estimates based on those averages and cross-species comparisons, the Lund wind tunnel study of birds flying at a range of speeds, and revised Strouhal numbers based on that study all lead me to estimate that the average cruising airspeed velocity of an unladen European Swallow is roughly 11 meters per second, or 24 miles an hour.

Yea but is that constant speed or fart speed ?

RORY

#What is your favorite color ???" :smiley:

Blue, no I mean black,no aggggh!

Heres another question and maybe someone would like to try this at home and tell me the outcome.
If you put a diamond on an anvil and hit it with a heavy hammer what would happen ?

RORY

Why don’t yous go and feck-up someone else’s advert…

…on another list!!!

Would that I had the dough.

By the way, what’s a nice Texan like you doing asking for Euros? You guys aren’t really serious about this whole secession thingy are you? If you are, can Idaho come along? :slight_smile:

On a more serious (and musical) note, do you (or anyone) think boxwood affects chanter sound? I am of the opinion that it affects flute sound noticibly…just wondered if it had enough impact to overcome a reed’s characteristics.

Doc

Hi Doc-
Yeah this Texan has been Euro side for a bit over 2 years now. Living in Leiden not far from Amsterdam. Lovely, ahem, music around here! You raise a good point about boxwood- one of the reasons I bought the chanter was because of the boxwood- I’m really looking for a concert pitch chanter with a more sweet to dark tone rather than something really bright and edgey. I think the bore/reed have the most to do with that and the boxwood might add some subtle tonal colour. I’ve ordered a boxwood chanter from the local maker Evertjan t’Hart (who is making pipes that look near-exactly like Dave Williams sets) that has a nice deep guttoral tone and is more in this kind of direction so I’ve decided to let this one go. That’s not to say this isn’t a good chanter- far from it, its simply that since I play in B most of the time and the Rogge is such a blazing contrast. Would prefer something a bit closer to home!

As for the other fellows I’m sure they were just having a bit of a laugh. Thanks for looking though!

R

Have you considered ebony?

I recently had the chance to hear two pipers playing a tune together - one on a K&Q ABW chanter and the other on a Seth Gallagher ebony chanter. Both chanters were reeded by the respective maker. Both were well tuned and had approx. the same volume but their sounds were completely different. The K&Q chanter had a bright sound while the Gallagher chanter sounded much more mellow - almost like a flat chanter. I know that the reed has a lot to do with the tone but I still think that some of the tonal difference in the Gallagher chanter was due to it being made of ebony.

That’s interesting. I once played a Gallagher D full set which had been reeded by another maker (I’m sworn to secrecy as to which maker. Re-reeding is not a service he generally offers to the public).

Purely accidental…the owner was a friend of the maker and they were at some sort of tional when the guy’s Gallagher chanter reed gets damaged. The other maker made him a new one on the fly but it didn’t really jive right with the set so he ended up re-reeding the whole enchilada for him so he could do his performance or workshop or whatever it was.

The set sounded very dfferent than any of the other Gallagher sets I’ve played (probably 10 sets or so and which were very consistent). It was much smoother and warmer whereas I typically find Gallaghers to be a bit brighter and more edgey and traditional (I mean these to be complimentary descriptions).

Anyway, It was wonderfully “flat-setish” to my ear. I was later talking to Ted Anderson about it and he said he thought it was probably the cane (Ted likes to talk about cane and has forgotten more about reed making than most will ever know). Seems like he said the cane the second maker uses is softer than the cane Seth usually uses and that likely accounted for the difference.

Anyway, it was really interesting.

Doc

The whole topic of wood and tone is a quagmire.

In the case above, you’re definitely comparing apples to oranges (completely different bores and different reeds), so I don’t think you can draw any reasonable conclusions about timber.

I do agree that timber seems to have a strong impact on tone - sometimes. However no two people agree about what is meant by “dark” or “bright”, in fact I’ve seen people describe as “bright” a tone that I would find dark, and vice-versa. That doesn’t mean the effects don’t exist, but it does suggest that one should be very wary of other peoples’ descriptions of tone. Blackwood versus ebony is a comparison where I’ve certainly heard people say one is “brighter” than the other - and vice versa! The only way to make sense of this on a personal level is to hear two nearly-identical instruments by the same maker, played side-by-side with the same reed. Then at least you can know which you prefer, if not what to call the differences.

There’s another important issue at work too. Most chanters that are (potentially) rich in high harmonics, which some would call “bright”, others “buzzy”, can be stripped of those harmonics rather effectively with a different reed. It can be due to high damping in the reed, or due to misalignment of resonance peaks - for instance most chanters sound “darker” (or “duller”, depending on who you ask) if the octaves are mis-tuned. While this “de-brightening” can suit some people, it comes at a price; octave tuning problems, poor responsiveness, or both. On the other hand, some chanter/bore designs have a different harmonic content inherently, and can thus have a dark tone that preserves tuning and response. Such a tone, while often called “dark”, would also be called “rich”, i.e. dark and rich like chocolate as opposed to dark like a musty basement. I’ve certainly heard both kinds of dark… there’s also the issue of “feel”; sometimes I’ve heard something that sounded OK but didn’t feel very nice under the fingers, when I “got behind the wheel”.

The usual wisdom is that African Blackwood has a subjectively “louder” (though perhaps not actually louder) sound, more trumpet-like - I take this to mean more dominant second and third harmonics. Boxwood can, in my experience, have plenty of high harmonics but perhaps less of the “midrange”, which makes for a buzzier effect overall. Paradoxically some people call this “darker” and others call it “brighter” - unfortunately this is still a pretty subjective observation.

All that said, I suspect that in RobBBQ’s case of the Rogge boxwood chanter, the bore is the bigger factor.

best regards,

Bill

The chanter has been put on ebay. Item # 220470732305

Cheers
Rob