As pointed out on another thread about ebonite a while back, modern ebonite does NOT go green, yellow, pale brown or craze and crack. Those problems of early ebonite in the C19th were to do with chemical impurities/imbalances in the material - and not even all antique examples suffer from those problems (good luck!). Modern ebonite as made for many uses and still regularly used for student level oboes and clarinets (not to mention certain Indian and Pakistani “flutes”) is made with modern understanding of chemistry and materials and doesn’t have the same problems.
Just for fun, I thought I might return to the original post.
I agree that the CB flute would be an excellent first choice for a beginner. I have nothing against synthetic materials and will probably get a Delrin flute after I get the wooden flutes on my wish list.
While I have very little experience with ebonite, Delrin/polymer does get a greasy feel to it, and wood is more comfortable, in that regard.
I disagree about the greasy feel…partial.
YES it can feel greasy/ be slippery (my first was a Dixon) BUT it all depends how the maker treats/ finishes the surface of the flute.
Jon C’s flutes do NOT feel greasy at all and have a very good grip.
berti
Good idea, CranberryDog! I think some missed the point of Cocus’ post, and got a little lost along the way.
As a long time advocate for plastic flutes, I still have to agree with Cocus that a wooden flute has the edge in tone and response (to my ears) given that you get a good wooden flute.
Though personally, I still think that a good plastic flute (stress on good), is still a good flute, and you can make some nice music on them. They have a place and time where they are also great to have instead of a valuable or cherished wooden flute.
But for a serious beginner, don’t pass up on the best wooden flute you can afford, for any concerns about durability and difficulty of care of wooden flutes. Given reasonable care and common sense, wooden flutes are easy to care for and very durable.
If you can’t be bothered with the care factor, then just get a plastic flute, but just know that you might be missing how nice it is to have a wooden flute. Ever heard of Wooden Flute Obsession (great CDs too)? There’s a good reason it’s called that!
If you can’t be bothered with the care factor, then just get a plastic flute, but just know that you might be missing how nice it is to have a wooden flute. Ever heard of Wooden Flute Obsession (great CDs too)? There’s a good reason it’s called that!
Don’t make the mistake of confusing the flute and the flutist, though.
When you’re talking folks who play on that level, you’re talking about people who could play on a flute turned out of a large carrot and still sound better than I sound playing my Hamilton.
While you’re listening to those fine CD’s, please check out track 20 on disk 1 of the original Woodenflute Obsession CD, and listen to the fine music that Tom Doorley made when he was playing a Delrin flute by Desi Seery.
That track is your target: if you don’t sound at least that good when you try a Seery flute, then the difference isn’t the flute: it’s you.
–James
P.S. Also on this CD on track 19 you can hear Turlach Boylan playing his ebonite flute, which was discussed earlier, and on track 10 you can hear Noel Rice making some mighty fine music on a silver Boehm system flute.
There you go James, you got the solution for the destruction of rare woods for making flutes… orange flutes made of carrot! 
Juts don’ leave your rabbit around your instruments hehe…
I had no idea this thread wood take on such a life of its own. I still maintain what I said in the first post—
- As far as sound goes wood is superior to plastic.
- Maintenance on a wood flute isn’t difficult. Some great players never clean their wood flute. They still sound great.
- A wood CB flute with a base price of $300 is a better choice for making music than a more expensive plastic flute.
- The exception is if the flute has to endure really adverse conditions, as you might find in the desert or in the Antarctic.
I’ve played in New England in the winter when the RH has been 20% in the house. And in the summer when the RH is 90%. I’ve taken my timber flute on bicycle rides in all sorts of conditions - with no problems. I’ve shipped flutes all over the world, in all sorts of weather, with no problems.
Granted that Turlach Boylan or Tom Doorly (who BTW now plays a wooden flute) can make great music on a plastic flute. This does not argue for the superiority of the flute but rather for the superiority of the two players.
People who argued in support of plastic did so for other considerations than musical. An exception was the guy from China, the home of all things plastic: “a delrin flute well made by a top maker can sounds good as one made in blackwood!”). Did you know that 99% of all the world’s toys are now made in China? What do you suppose these toys are made of?
Doc asked, “Cocus have you played both for others or just for yourself?” I’ve played a number of plastic flutes. One thing I’ve discovered is that what I hear as I play is not the same as what other people hear. The better it sounds to me, the better I play. What other people say they hear is by and large irrelevant.
I did play an expensive antique ebonite flute but I couldn’t get past the smell. I agree with Migoya that “The difference in tone and feel is striking from Delrin to wood. There is no comparison. None.” I also agree that the feel of Delrin can be “greasy.” And a Delrin flute is heavy. As Barry said, “a wooden flute has the edge in tone and response.”
My wife got a kick out of the guy who said he liked a plastic flute because he could “leave it in my backpack and drag it around everywhere.” I think most of would not think of having to “drag around” a flute . Rather, we feel lucky to have a flute at hand which we can play. Maybe he should leave it in the backpack, period. Then he wouldn’t be “bothered” to play it.
cocusflute, you sound a bit like a man with issues!
Seriously, I see nothing wrong with owning either or both.
I own several flutes, and I feel that playing each one has taught me things that the others couldn’t teach me.
Best to ya,
–James
Hey James, tell me what playing a plastic flute has taught you about playing the flute. Not just a different flute, but a plastic flute.
Sure, can do. 
The Seery in particular rewards a very muscular embouchure combined with a strong, well-supported airstream. Give it what it likes, and you get a big booming, ringing sound with a nice bit of edge.
When I was waiting for my Hamilton, I played my Seery almost exclusively, and I think one reason that I had no real trouble adjusting to the Hamilton was due to the fact that working with the Seery had my chops in good shape for it.
Of course, the Hamilton also rewards that same style of play, giving you a lovely, rich sound that has an almost metallic ring.
But the two flutes are different. The Hamilton rings more and has slightly more volume; the Seery has a lovely glistening edge to its sound that really adds both elegance and power to its sound.
Now you can get that same kind of sound on a Hamilton, by changing the embouchure a bit, but it doesn’t do it as freely or easily as the Seery.
By contrast, again by adjusting the embouchure, you can get that clear, almost metallic ringing in the Seery’s tone, but it doesn’t do this as well or as easily as the Hamilton.
By playing both, I feel I’ve developed quite a bit of flexibility in my embouchure, tone, and control, that I don’t feel I would have to this degree had I played only one flute at the exclusion of the others.
Also, I have the ability to pick up almost any flute, now, and quickly find an approach that gets a reasonably good sound from it. This ability came from having several flutes and dividing my playing time between them.
That Seery flute is made of a heavy polymer (plastic, if you prefer) called Delrin.
Best,
–James
I can’t agree so far as a keyless Seery goes. Well, I play a blackwood 8-key with rather thick walls, so…
But I will say that the particular Delrin jobbie I have in mind has flex to it that wood doesn’t, and that it has a disconcertingly sproingy-bouncy wobble to it when I’ve played it. Not a lot, but enough to freak me out.
The differences you describe sound more like differences one would expect from two flutes from different makers. What evidence is there that one of the flutes being plastic has anything to do with your observations?
Someone needs to find two flutes that are as physically identical as possible with the exception of the material they are made out of, then mail them around for everyone to try. 
That’s kind of the point.
It’s not that the material of a flute doesn’t matter; it’s that the cut of the embouchure and the profile of the bore and the tone holes has a lot more to do with its quality of sound than of the material it’s made from, as long as it’s airtight.
–James
‘But for a serious beginner, don’t pass up on the best wooden flute you can afford, for any concerns about durability and difficulty of care of wooden flutes. Given reasonable care and common sense, wooden flutes are easy to care for and very durable.’
I think this is the point.
Delrin flutes can indeed be good flutes
and personally I think the seery delrin a better flute
than the folk flute, which is also a good flute.
The seery is maybe twice the price of the folk flute
and a good deal more demanding to play.
I bought mine from a fellow who couldn’t
get the seery embouchure. I think the FF is the
better beginner’s flute.
Also there is somewhere our there an Olwell
delrin flute. It’s had to believe it’s less good
than the FF!
I’ve not played a Jon C or a Ward delrin, but I would
be surprised if they weren’t a good deal better
than the FF, which is a very good beginner’s flute for the price
but not the flute from hell. Again they cost a lot
more than a FF. So I don’t think every decent wooden
flute sounds better than more expensive delrin flutes.
But I believe that, at the point your paying for a
delrin flute that sounds better than a FF, you’re approaching
a price where there are wooden flutes available
that probably sound better than the delrin flutes.
Another reason for the serious beginner to start with wood,
by the way,
is to learn how to take care of a wooden flute. If you’re
serious you will almost certainly end up with a wooden
flute, after all.
One care issue about wood–I do think it’s prudent to humidify
wooden flutes in dry situations, e.g. central heating in
the winter. Wood shrinks when it’s dry and this can cause
cracking. Not that it must, but I do think the risk
is real and can’t be prudently ignored.
This is the most significant care issue about wood, but it
doesn’t amount to much. Easy enough solutions.
I use a humidifier in the room where I keep my flutes,
which has the advantage of humidifying the air I
breathe, too.
Well, I wouldn’t go so far as to say that a polymer flute is the perfect flute for every flutist…far from it.
There are cases where I think they make a lot of sense:
–some people are allergic to tonewoods. Without polymer flutes, these folks would most likely wind up either playing silver flutes or no flute at all;
–a promising young learner may have the musical aptitude to learn to play flute but not the level of maturity yet to care for a wooden instrument. I speak from experience on this, having seen firsthand many times the damage done by young school flutists to the (metal!) instruments that they play, and I shudder to think of a Hamilton or an Olwell or God-forbid a historical flute undergoing that kind of care;
–a polymer flute is great for those who travel frequently. Wood may not be particularly fragile but if you frequently change climates with a wooden flute, it can crack.
–a polymer flute makes a great choice for those looking for a backup instrument (or for a “desk flute”) because they need no special care and they can be left assembled indefinitely without damage
I maintain that flutes are going to vary more by maker than by material; for instance, a McGee flute in blackwood and a McGee flute in Delrin are going to be more similar in the way they play than are a McGee flute in blackwood and a Hamilton flute in blackwood.
Best to all,
–James
Hi Cocusflute
by the way my name’s Manuel , please feel free to call me like that …
About China producing most of plastic products nowdays… , yes I have to agree , it is …but actually the buyers are mostly from western countries ,included your country wich by the way I like very much !
It means that foreigners give the money for producing most of the plastic things that are selling around the world !
Please think about that a bit …
And remember that foregneirs are forced to go to China because most of their country have the economical need ( let’s just say that the business men can make much more profict and the rest of the people can buy things cheaper ) , but that’s all consumism and it just go from one place to the other !!!
I could go much more deeper in this matter but I think this is not the place for that and I sincerily apologize with the rest of you about my reply to cocusflute , but I think that cocusflute’s reply about China it’s not an appropriate one in this forum as right now is my reply !
Sorry again to Mr Dale and all of you !
Well … getting back to delrin and wooden flutes , I still convinced that the sound of my delrin flute is as good as my wooden flute , sure they’ll have some differents tonal (color ,etc,) qualities but I belive that the cause it would be the diferences in blowing hole and bore construction .
Or perhaps it’s me that getting a good embouchure with irish flutes ?!?!
I’d like to say also that I’m agree with Berti66 about the slippery/greasy problem on delrin flutes , my hands sweating a lot but never slip out of my McGee flute !
I belive , as Berti66 said ,it depends on the finish of the delrin flute ( every maker probaly use some different method ) .
About the fishroll converted in shakuhachi , well I’d really like to belive that it could be possible to make a decent shakuhachi out of a fishroll 
But unfortunatly I guess you just ,perhaps can get out of it something that would looking like a primitive flute made out of bone !
BTW, I very appreciate the idea of making a musical instrument out of a fishroll !
Best to all of you
Manuel
I’m a beginner. I own a CB FF, M&E and a Forbes. The FF is nice, mine is setup for smaller hands. I have a hard time half-holing a G# on it. It sounds nice and I like the mopane.
The M&E is heavy, has a nice tone and seems very durable. Half-holing is easier
The Forbes is light, well-crafted and sounds very nice. It also seems quite durable. Seems louder than the M&E and is easier to half-hole.
Right now, I’m trying to decide which two of the three to sell.
I live in Haiti during the school year and visit the midwest during the holidays. I enjoy caring for the FF, but its nice to be able to leave either of the others assembled indefinitely and know that I can wash them with soap and water and never worry about rapid temp/humidity changes.
Not sure I’ll ever be up to owning any flute over $500 while in Haiti. Crime is often a problem where I live and I just wouldn’t want to see an expensive flute stolen.
So, I’m a beginner living in ‘extraordinary circumstances’. Polymer is good, wood is good. Political instability, hunger and poverty are bad. Polymer is easier travel with. Carry it on or check it, it’ll survive and I won’t have to eat an antacid wondering about the safety of my flute.
I will say this concerning my choice of polymer: I’m poor and that’s a lifestyle I choose daily. When I buy a flute I have to balance criteria like tone, balance, responsiveness and ‘soul’ with durability, price and availability. If flute is your art and you’ll spend any amount on your art then the discussion of polymer vs. wood is moot. Flute is not my art, its a diversion I happen to like.
and before anyone starts with the ‘a superior flute maintains it’s value and is therefore a good investment’ tell that to your banker.
It is best to start with the carrot ocarina. The fishroll Shakuhachi is an advanced instrument.
A carrot ocarina… hmmm ,I like it as well !
Or perhaps a even less advanced instrument , a baguette didjeridoo !
Manuel