The keyless price is fixed but that’s delivered within a ~12 month timeframe.
This is, of course, consistent with the price of the keyed flute
being fixed, too. So far nothing said here contradicts this, e.g. that
the unkeyed price is fixed, that the price of keyed flutes goes
up over time.
Question: Does anybody know for a fact that, when you
order a keyed flute from Pat O, and you ask ‘OK, how much will it
cost me?’ there is no fixed answer?
I don’t mean to be difficult, I really want to know.
This intrigues me as well. Waitlists can vary, they seem to be estamated at best, and that’s accepted, but I don’t think I would accept a deal that commits me to buy in 6 years, and maybe pay 30% more for it than I calculated.
Well well, this is not a concern for me any more, and you shall all know why in due time, just you wait and see 
And I promise, it has nothing to do with
whisky 
When I ordered, they told me that the price was somewhere around 3k, but didn’t even give an exact current price. Aaron told me that they’d be in touch not too long before starting the flute to give us a price and see if we still wanted it. Note that they don’t take a deposit on the flute, so if the price goes up astronomically and you decide you can’t afford it, you don’t lose anything. Also, if inflation is 20% per year between now and then, they don’t lose anything because they can adjust the price accordingly.
well, the embouchure is what i think makes an olwell play like an olwell. there is, of course, more to it, but i think that a pratten style best fits his embouchure. i like a rudall with a more traditional cut. in a pratten, however, it is very nice to have a sweet and powerful olwell cut, as it lets you rip into the flute. the joy of a rudall is in its difficult complexity, i think. and there’s nothing difficult about an olwell embouchure! and thank heavens for that, 
when i talked to pat, i believe he said that he cannot guarantee price, and that you have an option of opting out. but who would want to opt out after 6 years?
Hey everybody,
I should have put these quotes up sooner. Here are direct quotes regarding pricing and 8-key flutes from the e-mail I received from Sabra Guzman at Olwell Flutes.
“A keyless flute in blackwood with a sterling silver tuning slide
currently costs $1550. Currently, the wait for a keyless flute is
about 12-14 months. To reserve a place on the waitlist, you must send
a $300 deposit. The address is: P.O. Box 117, Nellysford, VA 22958. If
it is too much trouble to acquire a bank cheque in US dollars, drawn
on a US bank, please let us know and we can arrange another method of
payment.”
“Our keyed flute waitlist is about 6 years at this point, although if
you’d like fewer than six keys, the wait could be less. The current
price for a 6-key flute with silver fittings, right now, is $3350. We
do not take deposits for the keyed flute list since the wait is so
long; you only need to put in a request. After that, you must contact
us regularly (once per year, and then more frequently as the time
nears) to let us know you’re still interested in a keyed flute. Our
whole system with the keyed flutes is based on these reminders, so
don’t take this point too lightly.”
“As for our cost, right now, you are correct. Our keyed flutes
generally cost about $3350, give or take a few dollars depending if
anything special is ordered with the flute. But our prices are not
set. We change the prices when the economy is effecting it. The
price of silver and other materials can alter our prices, as well as
cost of living, shipping flutes, etc. However, the change in price
would be fair and not a huge increase. For instance, our flutes
before this Feb 2008 were priced at $3150 for an African Blackwood
keyed flute with all silver fittings. We hadn’t changed the price in
a few years (and probably will not have to for another few years) but
saw it fit to increase the price since silver costs have gone up, as
well as shipping and other raw materials.”
“As for your question about an 8-keyed flute, at this point in time, we
are not making these kinds of flutes, but are actually in a “research
& development” stage with this idea. We could, by the time your end
date nears, be making these in the future, but are sticking to what we
know best, and hoping to satisfy customers’ playing needs with our
6-key or 3-key flutes.”
Hope this helps those who are interested.
Michael
Thanks for posting that. I wasn’t aware of the need for reminders. It’s been over a year since I visited down there, probably time I let them know of our continued interest.
Thanks for the reply. I think it’s a fairly good price for an Olwell keyed flute for europeans, actually, with the exchange rates dollar/euro…
What’s this “as far as I understand” thing? Sounds like you haven’t actually played one, Daiv.
As it so happens, I own all three - Rudall, Nicholson, Pratten - plus some original Rudalls for comparison. Patrick’s Rudall plays like an original Rudall, minus the tuning bugaboos. It does this because, despite your claims to the contrary, it IS a Rudall-style flute. Where exactly did you get the idea that it wasn’t?
Oh, there. You’re confusing your opinion with fact. Just because you like a Rudall with a more traditional cut doesn’t mean that a Rudall with a modern cut like Patrick’s is any less a Rudall. When I put one of Patrick’s headjoints on my Wylde-from-R&R flute, it doesn’t magically transform into an Olwell; it’s still itself, just with an embouchure cut that responds to a different kind of blow than does the original. I still manage to wring sufficient joy from it without having to interface with an original-style embouchure cut, which I might add has been so popular down through the years that almost none have survived to modern times without having been altered. The embouchure cut is not what makes a Rudall, original or in reproduction, a Rudall. Cheers,
Rob
Let the grouse-fest continue. What in the world is this all about? An Olwell Nicholson model flute is positively dripping with power and expressiveness. It’s much easier to control (in the high register especially) than the Pratten flute, and gives great reward for little effort. In most players’ hands, you wouldn’t really be able to tell much of a difference between the two styles, since the “advantages” of the Pratten only come into play after the flute has really been filled properly by a player with an efficient blow. Sadly, most of these flutes go to folks who haven’t developed their blow to where they’d even get the flute into that range.
I have lamented in the past the drumbeat of recommendations on this forum that people get Olwell Pratten-style flutes, regardless of where they might be in their development as players. In certain circumstances, I can see the attraction of having a flute like that, and indeed I take my Pratten to play in aircraft hangars and at NASCAR races. The problem as I see it is that too many people are relying on the efficient embouchure cut on Patrick’s flutes, ending up with a half-arsed tone that’s still loud enough to use in public and yet not pleasing to the ear. Rudall- and Nicholson-style flutes can be just as session-functional; what they lack on the sometimes-attainable top end, they more than make up for in overall playability and ease of tone production. Do consider something else besides a Pratten. Cheers,
Rob
I didn’t mean for this question to become a fight over the relative merits of Pratten versus Nicholson designs.
Rob, your point is well taken. Compared to all of you, I am still a novice flute player, so I cannot knowledgeably speak on these subjects. However, speaking from my limited experience, I have to say that tone is very important. I’d rather have good tone and control than volume. Unfortunately, my Copeland keyless is not based on either Pratten or Nicholson but on a Prowse, which I believe is somewhere in between the two. I do know that my flute is capable of extreme power and volume and can take, if the embouchure is not controlled, a tremendous volume of air. It has a very large bore. Therefore, the Nicholson, with its slightly smaller bore might be better, or at least different from the one I currently have.
In short, I’ve got a lot to consider. Perhaps I will order the Nicholson keyless, see how I like it, and order the Pratten keyed.
In any event, thank you for your input.
Michael
We all know that there are those who are attracted to Rudalls and those who are attracted to Prattens. For example, I am one of the former and Jim Stone is one of the latter. The thing is, there is no universal rule. I can get more volume out of a small-holed Olwell than out of a large-holed Olwell or a Hammy. I owned a Hammy for a couple of years, and it’s a remarkable flute. I would never hesitate to recommend it to someone who was attracted to Prattens. It is EASIER to get a big fat sound out of it if you don’t have a good control of your embouchure. But that doesn’t mean only a Hammy will give you a big, fat sound.
Remarks like you can get more volume out of a Pratten or the Olwell embouchure is better for his Pratten are not universally true. As we all know, it all depends on the player.
Rob probably said it better than I, but I thought I’d chime in with a post that says the same thing but from a different POV.
Michael, you can order a flute from Patrick without telling him what model you want till a few months before he gets to it. That’s what I did when I ordered mine: I’m lucky enough to live 3 hours from Massie’s Mill and went down there and played a bunch of flutes before settling on the Rudall-based flute. I dunno where you live, but if you can’t try his various flutes where you are, and you’re within striking distance of central Virginia, a visit to his place is absolutely a blast.
chas,
I’m going to do as you suggest and hold off on a final decision up until the end (I’m a born procrastinator anyway). I’d love to visit the Olwell shop, but, unfortunately, I live about eight hours from Massie’s Mill. I do make an annual pilgrimage to Virgina every June, but I definitely am going to change my itinerary to include a visit. Until then, I’m still looking for someone near where I live who owns an Olwell (any version), to at least look at the workmanship and see how it feels in my hands.
Thanks again,
Michael
I agree of course that the Nicholson is a powerful and expressive
flute. I’ve just ordered a Nicholson body/foot, in fact, because
I like the Nicholson. I do think
the Pratten has more of both, though I also agree the
flutes are close. I do not find the pratten difficult to control
in the upper register. I agree with you that it’s a mistake to rely
on the flute rather than one’s own expertise and it’s good
to have pointed it out to our friend, who is now forewarned
that he must become a real musician.
I appreciate that some good players prefer the Nicholson,
the differences being to their liking. Personally I go for the
what I find to be the greater expressiveness and power.
Especially as the Pratten is, I find, easy enough to handle and control.
As I pointed out, this is a matter about which people may
well disagree.
I’m not alone in my feelings here, in any case. Patrick Olwell, for instance,
is a good flautist and he told me recently that only lately
is he able to make the Nicholson heard in loudish sessions.
Other senior people on this board advised me to get
the Pratten (years ago when I got it) for the same reason,
though they also liked very well the Nicholson.
Our friend might do well to have a conversation with Patrick
himself. He’s certainly willing to discuss these issues on
the phone.
Thanks for your opinion, Rob.
i believe i played one the other day. i never asked the owner what model of olwell it was, so i cannot be certain. it played like an olwell–light, easy, responsive. but it may have been one of his nicholson models. to me it felt like it was an olwell, the same as a pratten. i believe (as i remember patrick telling me this) he uses the same embouchure cut on both. i also have read someone say that they all play like olwells. but from my experience, of playing several prattens and the one smaller holed (i’m guessing rudall), is that it didnt have the same resistance i find in rudalls. it just played well. i think a pratten is more fun when it is wild and out of control, and a rudall more fun when it has a more difficult embouchure. and i stick by that i think that i like pat’s embouchure cut on a pratten better.
as far as i understand is that i have never played his models side by side, and that i have never measured the bores or asked anyone specifically about the dimensions of the flute. i think “as far as i understand” makes it very clear that i do not think i have an authoritative position, and that i think i could be wrong. in science, we say, “the research seems to suggest” or “this book says,” because when we get new information, it is very common to find out you are wrong. if i knew for sure, i would have said, “i have measured the bores of all three…” or “patrick told me that…” or cited how i knew.
the reason i thought that his flutes were not strictly rudall style flutes was from a conversation with patrick. the way he described it, i didnt get the sense that they had huge differences in bores–i thought he said the difference was in the hole sizes. i thought it was similar to how david copley took a hawkes (i believe) and put smaller holes on it. maybe patrick was oversimplifying it for me, and i did not drill him on bore sizes and such, because i was not at the purchasing stage. i guess i was wrong! and i also understand that you would have to do some tweaking to get a smaller holed flute with the same size bore (different reamers), but i thought it was generally the same bore. however, it seems you are telling me they are not, so as a lucky owner of all three, i believe you are right!
and again, in response to “confusing opinion with fact,” i thought it was not a real rudall because i didnt think that the bore size had changed, due to my misinterpretation of my conversation with patrick. as i recall, he said he made a “large holed model, a small holed, and a medium holed.” it is my fault for not asking him to clarify what else was different–all i asked was about the embouchure cuts, and they were the same. i may have also asked about the headjoints, and they may be the same (are they? my notes of the conversation are at school and i am not right now).
and i’m sorry you dont like old embouchures! i think they’re really fun. i have an antique nicholson copy, with its original embouchure, and i would never want an easier to play embouchure on it. i prefer an embouchure that is difficult to play than an easy one.
this is like on silver flutes–i prefer the older style, boston cut embouchure, which doesnt have all these modern tweaks that increase the size of the sweet spot.
not everyone likes the same think i do in a flute. that is why pat makes all three types of flutes. also, many people cannot fill a pratten, or prefer not to. they should get an olwell rudall or a nicholson, as an olwell plays great, no matter what. however, if i specifically wanted a rudall, i would probably get a rudall with a different embouchure. and then leave it at home, because who would want to play a flute that patrick didnt make? 
as stated that way, i completely agree. i was making the assumption that most people can fill a pratten. the (rudall or nicholson) olwell i played the other day was certainly dripping with power and expressiveness. it was very loud, and i could get any sound out if i wanted. i, however, was looking for that (hardly) attainable top you speak of, which was lacking–that is where i spent all my time, and i missed it on the olwell.
i still say i like the pratten better, but as my uncle says, “there’s a lot of rope to hang yourself with:” sometimes less is more. i would also suggest considering something else if you are not obsessed with efficient and flexible embouchures.
edit:
i agree with jim. it took a lot of work to make the smaller holed olwell be as loud as a pratten. however, i never play a pratten as loud as it can go except for a fraction of a second. if you are playing any flute that loud the whole time, you probably could do to back off and blend more (you’ll also be capable of adding more lift at a lower volume). i like to take a loud pratten and play it very quietly. i think that’s when an olwell pratten (or any pratten) shines.