I could make ChatGPT continue this discussion, in case you guys are tired. 
Just let it die, please 
(it should have been let go pages ago).
After all that
Yes, I have one. But it’s not really fit for sessions, because it’s too quiet. Thus, I don’t play it a lot any more.
really takes the cake. 
Well, I made that claim several posts ago. If you think it’s a corruption of history, I’d love to hear your perspective. Like I said, I’m no historical expert, that was just my impression.
Do you deny that flute-makers in the 60s and 70s began, for the first time, the widespread practice of making keyless R&R and Pratten style flutes? And do you deny that over time, more and more makers began adding keys to the flutes in keeping with 19th-century tradition, so that now, there are more makers making keyed flutes than there were in the 70s? Because those two points are the only historical claims I’m making. If I’m wrong, please tell me exactly what points I’m wrong about.
And yes, we have been reading the same discussion, and no one has even attempted to refute my argument for why extra holes are superior to keys. Like, my argument very well could be wrong, but no one even offered a refutation on that point. I guess you haven’t been reading the discussion carefully, or you would know this.
What’s your point exactly? Are you arguing it’s unreasonable to think that a tapered-bore whistle is too quiet for large sessions? 
Or are you just out of things to say?
And yes, it is indeed a tiresome discussion. I keep thinking it’s over, and then someone makes another rather flippant remark about my position, which I think warrants a response.
This has been a useful discussion though. I had been thinking a out experimenting with making a chromatic quena but couldn’t decide how to go about it as there are lots of potential ways of doing things.
(Incidentally, I’d like to do it with a piano too by having extra black keys so that you can play the whole tone scale on the white keys, and do the same thing starting a semitone higher on the black keys - you’d then only need to learn to play in two keys to be able to play in any other, but it would take a lot of effort and expense to make one. Maybe that would be the perfect keyboard for the masses, and the reach to span an octave with one hand would also be more comfortable and accessible to small hands, but that’s something people could argue about elsewhere, and probably already have done. Maybe the fingering would be so awkward that it’s a non-starter, but without a keyboard to try it out on, that’s hard to judge.)
Anyway, despite my doubts about needing one myself, I’d still like to try making a chromatic flute-whistle to find out, and I’m sure I could make one with high quality sound at affordable cost. I’ve actually just made my first prototype whistle head quenilla-whistle converter which is already producing better tone than my old untweaked Generations, so I’m now planning to set things up to manufacture and sell flute-whistles made of resin, and for a little extra cost I’ll be happy to drill the holes in the quantity and positions individual customers want them.
I’ve looked up the Morneaux Mark 1 and saw the Mark 2 there as well. The first has a doubled hole on it, while the second has a separate hole which appears to be made in a projection that sticks out from the tube to make it more practical to play, but harder to manufacture. I can’t see where the holes are on the underside, and I can’t work out how you produce the full range of 12 notes, so what I’d like to see now is an explanation of that.
I think the problem is that you keep moving the goalposts, and this is a good example. The first post from you makes it seem that you mean no one has offered any reason to question the need for a chromatic whistle, of which there have been many, but then you come back with a reply that changes your meaning to be that there was no one questioning why a keyed whistle is better than a chromatic whistle with only holes for extra fingers. You’ve done this type of goalpost moving several times, and it does become quite cumbersome to try to reply.
Needless to say, lots of people have questioned the need for a chromatic whistle, myself included.
What’s your point exactly? Are you arguing it’s unreasonable to think that a tapered-bore whistle is too quiet for large sessions? >
The fact you have been talking about your whistle as if it is the greatest thing since sliced bread and then in the end casually drop you can’t actually be arsed to play it. As if the only option for playing it is at sessions. It makes the whole thing laughable.
Only laughable if you lack proper reading comprehension.
I said the fingering scheme is the best thing since sliced bread, which it is. I never said the whistle itself is perfect in every way - it certainly isn’t. It isn’t very good as a session whistle.
I also never said that I would never play it or that the only option for playing it is at a session - both of these are invalid inferences from my statement. I merely stated that I don’t practice it much any more, because it isn’t very good for sessions. Sessions are the main place I play at the moment, so naturally I’m mainly going to practice on my session whistle. If I started recording a bunch, I might switch back to the Morneaux and start practicing that again.
What would be rather “laughable” is if the main whistle I currently practiced was one that doesn’t work too well for large sessions, even though the main place I play at the moment is at large sessions. That would be bizarre, in fact.
No, other people are changing the goalposts, not me. If you actually bother reading the “first post” I made in the above quotation chain, which stringbed conveniently added ellipses to and did not fully quote, I was CLEARLY stating that no one had offered “any reason” why keys would be better than a 10-hole design. That’s literally, exactly what I said. I was just misinterpreted, because for some reason people get triggered when they hear me talk about chromatic whistles and insist on attacking everything I say like I’m on trial.
Yes, you are wrong about that. There are far more keyless Irish flutes around today than there ever used to be. There are makers who will make a keyed flute, but most of them still make more keyless flutes than keyed flutes, because there is a big market for them, and of course they are cheaper. The keyless flute is capable enough that it can be used to make music at the highest levels. When you complicate it in order to address chromaticity limitations you also introduce disadvantages. For some players it is worth it, and for others not.
It is also worth bearing in mind that half holing, particularly on the D#/Eb note is much harder on a flute than on a whistle, so much so that I’d claim that the six hole whistle basically IS fully chromatic through the use of relatively easy half holing, whereas the six hole flute of the Irish style really isn’t. You can modify the keyless flute design to make the tone holes larger, etc, as with a bansuri, for example, to address this, or you can add a foot key, or you could try adding extra holes along the lines you are suggesting. Everything has been tried and various solutions shake out, some more popular than others.
I gave you a very comprehensive explanation for why extra holes are problematic. You stubbornly ignored it. In a nutshell, extra holes without keys constrain the placement of fingers on the instrument, which is very problematic ergonomically. For most people, this is so much so that it is disqualifying. With keys, the instrument can be designed such that the keys are closed by default, thereby leaving fingers free to stabilize the instrument in the location that matches the players hand size and flexibility requirements.
But keys also introduce complexity, cost and more possibilities for leaks, so many players in ITM decide that the capabilities of a keyless instrument are more than sufficient for the vast majority of tunes, and they put in the time to learn to half hole, cross finger, or otherwise improvise (by note substitution, say) to avoid notes that may be problematic for them. As a result, they get to enjoy an instrument that is reliable, ergonomically excellent, and relatively inexpensive. In the case of whistles, they are so inexpensive that you can have a quiver of whistles in different keys, allowing you to play virtually all Irish tunes, for less than the cost of a keyless flute … which itself is an inexpensive instrument.
So my advice would be to spend time practicing half holing, and spend money on whistles in a few complementary keys, rather than spending so much time typing and spending money on an obscure and more expensive instrument with poor ergonomics that still won’t give you as useful a range as a set of whistles in different keys.
Now I’ll take my own advice regarding the typing! 
Fair enough, that was a bad example. There were earlier things you said that made me post, I just didn’t want to scroll all the way back to find them. No matter.
Yep, agreed 100% with this.
As an aside, the maxim “absence of evidence is not evidence of absence” would seem to apply to this discussion, especially around the assertion that whistle players simply haven’t played “extra-holed” whistles.
I come from guitars, where my last purchase was a $1000 electro-classic (which has solid top, ebony fretboard, sleek cutaway, so a fine item for that price, but regardless, a mass produced factory guitar).
For less than €400, I’ve got Colin Goldie playing Shine on You Crazy Diamond for me, picking out which one of his F whistles sound best for it.
It’s insane, we’re not worthy of these intrument makers. 
This wasn’t my understanding. You may well be correct, but I’d appreciate it if stringbed, who claims to be a music historian, would chime in on this point (he previously accused me of “corrupting history” but didn’t say specifically which point I was mistaken about). I’m pretty sure that when it comes to the kind of flutes that flute-makers primarily construct, keyless flutes were more popular in the 70s than they are now.
Oh come off it. I didn’t “ignore” anything. I specifically responded to every single thing that you said. I noted that some of your points were valid but were exaggerated, and I pointed out specifically how. Moreover, never ONCE did you specifically address the question of whether extra holes are better than keys. That issue didn’t even come up when we were having our back-and-forth, because no one had yet raised keyed whistles as an alternative. You and I literally never had a discussion about whether keyed whistles are superior to whistles with extra holes. Since you now (apparently) want to discuss that, I’m happy to.
You’re right that keys introduce complexity, cost, and possibility for leaks. I also pointed out numerous other disadvantages they have when compared to holes - disadvantages that no one on this discussion has even disputed. The main downsides of keys is that they don’t allow for the same kinds of ornamentation as open holes. They’re also not as responsive, because they require a more significant finger motion than lifting a finger off of a hole. There’s fewer motions when you lift a finger off a hole and place it back over, as opposed to lifting your finger up, moving it forward, placing it over a key, lifting it up again, and returning it to its original position. Holes are more efficient. Finally, they also preserve the more simple, traditional aesthetic of the whistle.
Cyberknight, you seem to not understand even the basics of what I and others keep telling you, most of which is clearly stated and pretty obvious. You simply disagree and keep typing. Obviously, we are flogging a dead horse here.
It isn’t long ago that you were telling us all how Colin Goldie whistles were out of tune and needed to be fixed. I know you’ve since changed your opinion, but maybe you should extrapolate a bit from these kinds of experiences. Maybe in a few weeks time you’ll be telling us all about the merits of the 6-hole whistle. Its good to have revelations and be excited about them, but a lot of people on these forums have been at this for a long time and have a great deal of expertise.
Paddler, I’ve made many concessions during this discussion (even modifying my initial position), I’ve listened carefully to what people have said, and I’ve typed detailed responses to people’s ideas, including every single objection you raised about “my proposed design,” as you called it (even though it isn’t a “proposal” and I didn’t come up with it). This is the exact opposite of “disagree and keep typing,” which is what you appear to be doing. If you’re determined to hate chromatic whistles, you will hate them. It’s as simple as that. I can’t fix bias and prejudice. All I can do is patiently state my position and respond to people who desperately strawman my position.
And since you edited your response and added yet another misrepresentation of my position, I suppose I’ll respond to that one as well.
No, I never said that Colin Goldie whistles were out of tune and “needed to be fixed.” I said that my personal Goldie seemed very sharp in the second octave (the precise wording I used was “it has, if anything, the opposite problem of having too much octave spread”). And I edited that comment within a half hour of posting it, clarifying that the problem could easily be the way I was playing it and not the whistle itself, and that I was going back and forth on whether it was actually too sharp. As it turns out (and I clarified this a day or two later), the whistle was in tune, and I was the problem (I was just trying to play too loudly in the second octave).
It’s extremely condescending for you to use my comments on Goldie whistles to insinuate that I’m fickle about my positions and might change my opinion regarding chromatic whistles. I made that comment about Goldie whistles the day after I received my first Goldie whistle, and I was posting my initial thoughts about it, with reservations. Naturally, my mind changed as I got used to playing it (as often happens).
I’ve played my Morneaux chromatic whistle for 6 years. I’m pretty sure I have a good idea about how it plays, and I’m not going to go changing my mind about how much I like it.
EDIT: I want you to know that there are no hard feelings whatsoever about this discussion. I respect everyone on here as good and experienced musicians, and I hope I don’t come off as heated or annoyed. I’m really not. I’m just a bit perplexed by people’s combative attitudes and wish that people would read my posts a bit more carefully.
I felt it was perhaps self-evident that when I talked about covering holes, it was implied that I covered only those holes necessary. Apologies if that wasn’t obvious.
Here you make the argument that I feel many people will make about a 10-hole whistle (though I’m certainly able to be wrong on these things). They won’t see the point since a standard 6-hole whistle will get the job done for the majority of music they’re liable to play.
Because a thumb hole necessitates keeping your thumb in the precise position required to cover the hole. Taping it doesn’t.
You may be feeling a little defensive. Which may be understandable. I gave no criticism about 10-hole whistles of any kind. My commentary was more about myself finding no use for one and about my guesses as to the community’s feeling about them. And my prognostication that perhaps and especially at first, it would be considered a curiosity, and it would take some time before becoming commonly accepted–if ever. I didn’t even give any discouragement about making the experiment, and specifically pointed out that having a limited market at the start was not necessarily a reason not to try.
Surely I can’t be the only one who finds this thread’s turn tedious. Makes me not even want to read it in hopes of useful stuff.
« What we have here, is a failure to communicate. »
I find that the people who are making points that I understand and agree with are communicating more clearly at each attempt.
I am curious to know the traditional music genres for which a chromatic whistle is used.
Apparently, Balkan/Slavic folk music makes use of harmonic minor rather extensively. There’s also a lot of Arabic influenced folk scales in the wider region using 3 semitone gaps (the augmented second, for example Hijaz / Phyrigian Dominant Scale, which is very difficult on a tin whistle and some flutemakers like Erik or Freeman have special flutes for those type of intervals, and there’s the Traditional Turkish flute Ney) -a lot of traditional Japanese scales also have this augmented second- and there’s a lot of semitone-semitone-semitone using scales (like B-C-Db, Hungarian Gypsy, Indian Purvi) again while is possible, certainly not ideal on a tin whistle, as you may want to accentuate the notes more precisely, especially in faster moving passages. Indian Purvi is generally played slower on Bansuri (same as a whistle), and they indeed use half holes for the intervals. Hungarian Gypsy is usually played fast paced.
There’s quite a few good reasons why someone in traditional music background would like/need a chromatic whistle as most of these scales usually have their own special flutes. Erik has a fantastic video on some of these scales - a chromatic whistle significantly reduces the amount of flutes one needs to play these old-world scales. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yhmoUGLoTgU
I’m sure there are brilliant whistlers who can play these on the simple diatonic whistle, but that is a result of not-so-insignificant amount of hardwork and patience. In contrast, a chromatic whistle, with its difficulties, allows these types of scales to be learned as quickly as for example, someone to learn Slow Air on a whistle. A whistle built for Hijaz can’t really* play anything else by contrast. There’s always these kinds of trade-offs.