So, I had a chance to play with whistlers whic are much better than me yesterday. And they told me one thing: I play cuts and rolls wrong. Cuts should be played with lifting forefinger or fourth finger of top hand. I play them with lifting any finger which is next to the note Iâm cutting.
E.g.: when I play cut on E, I lift up the middle finger of bottom hand, instead of fourth finger of top hand. When I play cut on A, I lift middle finger of top hand, instead of index finger. Same thing with rolls - when I play roll on F#, I play cut to G ant tap to E, instead of cut to A and tap to E.
I started playing like that at the very beginning of my whistling, when there was no one to tell me that I was wrong. Some time after that I saw the lessons on whistlethis.com, and saw the difference, but thought that it was not something worth re-learning.
And now, after 4.5 monthes of playing, I was told that my cuts and rolls are completely wrong and that I wonât ever get neither good speed, nor that distinctive sound of Irish whistle if I wonât change my style. And I certainly do want speed and proper sound But re-learning will be really painful.
Many people play it like you. I donât know if itâs wrong, but what I hear is that you play too much ornamentation. Your rhythm suffers from it. Try and play a tune clean first, without cuts, taps or rolls. Then, when you play the tune with the good rhythm, you can add the ornamentation. A good way to learn this is looking and listening to Sean Cunningham at the tutorialsection on http://www.whistletutor.com/. He shows you very slowly how to do it. But best thing to do is find yourself a real teacher. I did and learned how to play the basics in 5 lessons. Never learned more than in those lessons. I play more seriously for a year now and now Iâm getting a bit content with my rolls, but still in the upper notes (where you lift the B instead of the G) Iâm having some difficulty playing them right. Taking time and keep on practising works at the moment. Learning a roll is not easy, but not so difficult either, it just takes time. Take that time and find out that one time you suddenly play what you want to play.
UmmâŚto be honest - if anyone says this way of playing rolls is bad, he should probably seriously think of his attitude. As far as I know, there is sort of consensus even among the best players, that it doesn´t matter which of these two styles you choose - I started playing them the same way you do and never regretted it actually. Now I started cutting it a little bit different (not with the finger above the tone, but with finger two tones above, if possible).
Both ways to play cuts have their merits, indeed, but you can´t say one is right and the other is wrong. To matter of speed - I have no problem with speed even when playing fast
I believe this attitude of âright and wrongâ comes from non-Irish people - when I met irish musicians, they were pretty free in their style, they said that Irish music is not too precious in meaning âyou have to play this here and this thereâ - that it´s supposed to be nice, not bound with certain rules.
There are professionals (notably Grey Larsen) who advocate the way you are doing your cuts, saying it produces a crisper articulation. Whether heâs right or not, as long as you are getting a nice, even roll, you have nothing to worry about.
Well the âattitude of right and wrongâ may come from non-Irish people, but so to does most of the deviant ways of playing, as in Ireland there is more likely to be examples around to learn from, and people are more likely to accept and mimick what they hear rather than try to re-invent the wheel.
The fact is that the vast majority of Irish players use the upper ring finger to cut the lower-hand notes D, E, F#, and G, and the upper index finger to cut A and B. Is it logical? Possibly not, but Irish music is a language, and languages are notoriously illogical. When you are learning a new language you donât try to impose you ideas about what is logical and what is not upon the new language. Instead you listen to the native speakers and try your best to do what they do. People learning Irish music would be well served to learn in this way. Listen, accept, and mimick what traditional players do.
I went to a Grey Larsen flute workshop many years ago and was dismayed at his odd approach to doing âcutsâ. He said he didnât know or care what Irish traditional players did, but instead used the power of his logic to come up with the âbestâ way of doing it.
I would call this the âYankee ingenuityâ approach, as opposed to the âtraditionalâ or âmusicologicalâ approach which is to accept the tradition on its own merits.
What you sayâs very true, but I think itâs very sensible to cut with the upper fingers- for one thing itâs got to be rememebred that cuts and taps and rolls et al arenât actually notes- theyâre not like trills or turns or grace notes in classical music. Also, it simply gives a stronger sound, at least on very whistle/flute/pipes Iâve seen, than a lower sound- more sudden and louder.
That partly depends on the whistle - I´ve played some whistles that sounded pretty bad when cutted this way. Even my Overton doesn´t like it very much.
Aaah, okay. Iâve never played a whistle I couldnât do that with, once I learned how to control it; but I havenât played very many whistles, so youâre probably right
I am pretty much non-linear in approach in playing cuts, taps, rolls and so on. Sometimes itâs whatever sounds the best on a particular intrument or on a particular tune. I play Irish flute and whistles.
I am completely inconsistent. Since I donât plan on writing about or teaching ITM, I do not feel I pose a danger to society. Cheers, Cyril.
i was under the impression that folk music, by definition, really doesnât have any hard-and-fast rules by which to play. i think as long as your cuts donât mess up your rhythm (or the rhythm of othersâŚcausing your brother to stumble is rude ) then it really depends on whatâs most comfortable for you. nothing to particularly fret over.
I used to cut the notes just like Ryan Duns teaches. With the ring and index finger from the left hand.
But my teacher taught me to cut with the note above (if I want to cut an D, I cut with E finger, if I want to cut an E, I cut with F# finger, and so on).
My teacher learnt to play whistle mainly from Grey Larsenâs books, and sheâs been playing since many years ago. Sheâs an awesome player.
Do whatever works for you. I do mostly next-higher-neighbouring-note cuts because when I learnt/taught myself, there was no-one to tell me different and it was logical. I learnt most of my early ITM in the company and under the influence of fiddlers, who have a different take on cuts and taps anyway. Listening to recordings, it is apparent when IT flute/whistle/pipe players use cuts, but not really what notes they cut to so that is no guide on what to use, only when. Iâve never been told by an Irish player that Iâm doing it âwrongâ and usually get complimented on my playing: any criticism I do (justly) get has never been on how I do cuts!
Much later I became aware of the âorthodoxâ method as described by Pancelticpiper. I think the logic of his argument about the tradition is sound, and Iâm not a Larsen proponent, but I donât think there is any need to be absolutist about this. By the time I became aware of the âorthodoxâ L hand only cuts thing, I was already using some alternative higher cuts in certain situations and in crans and double cuts, but I have not sought to systematically change my technique because I see no advantage in doing so. I really donât hear any significant difference in the effect in most situations. So long as you break the main note cleanly with a higher one and get a little âpopâ, the pitch of the latter is not important - cuts are mostly not about playing a pitched note anyway. As long as you achieve the effect you desire and it sounds to you sufficiently like your models, then you are doing OK.
I do think that whilst not the purist traditional method, the neighbouring note method is more versatile. Iâd say, be able to do both! Iâm also not sure how long-standing or universal in Ireland the L-hand only cuts method is! I wonder what analysis of some of the old 1920s recordings would show? âOrthodoxâ Irish method also says you canât do rolls on C, C# and second octave D, and yet, with a little practice, you can. Itâs just not so easy, but if you get it sorted they sound as good as any other rolls. But it ainât âtradâ! So, should one not use them, even if the music itself suggests them and they would be done on other instruments that donât face that particular technical challenge at that point? Purist tradition, or technical cop-out?
As a sort of by-comparison, it is noticeable that a large majority of older fiddlers and of fiddlers in old pictures from Ireland hold their bows in something very similar to if not exactly âclassicalâ fashion. Yet, in the sloppy revivalist days of the 1960s, it became de rigueur to hold the bow inefficiently about a third of the way up-stick, and to hold it âproperlyâ came to be derided as untraditional!!!
As a sort of by-comparison, it is noticeable that a large majority of older fiddlers and of fiddlers in old pictures from Ireland hold their bows in something very similar to if not exactly âclassicalâ fashion. Yet, in the sloppy revivalist days of the 1960s, it became de rigueur to hold the bow inefficiently about a third of the way up-stick, and to hold it âproperlyâ came to be derided as untraditional!!!
OK, seriously; Iâm not a fiddle expert, Iâm just reflecting what some fiddlers I respect and whom I know to be knowledgeable have told me, and also my limited personal experience in Ireland. e.g. on a trip to County Sligo about four years ago I went to a couple of sessions populated chiefly by players over 55-ish, some significantly so, and amongst those excellent senior players, not one fiddler held the bow up-stick. I have not personally researched the iconographic evidence - that is a second hand statement, I freely admit, but I have no reason to doubt my informant(s) until I see evidence to the contrary. Please do âverifyâ.
I do acknowledge that many youngsters in Ireland are taught (presumably by just the kind of old stalwarts I saw, in a truly traditional transmission) to hold their bows near the frog - my wording was sloppy there before as I did not intend to imply otherwise. Mea culpa!
As for the derision bit, Iâve certainly witnessed it, chiefly from not-very-competent players who insist that to hold near the frog is to âplay violinâ, not âfiddleâ; though not in Ireland - that may well be a British problem. I have, of course, also seen/heard some very fine fiddlers who do hold their bow up-stick, so Iâm not closed minded about it, to kind of go back to the point my comparison was intended to support originally! âDo what works for youâ and donât get overly fundamentalist about it.
Sorry I thought I had bit my tongue and killed the message before it was posted. I have long since decided to stay out of ill informed discussions like this. But having come so far I offer up this:
with the note I have dozens of this sort of pictures taken of fiddlers of my acquaintance including Bobby Casey and Junior Crehan above, But also including Paddy Canny, Peter O Loughlin, Paddy Galvin, Michael Downes, John Joe Tuttle, John Kelly, Joe Ryan Paddy Killourhy, Martin Rochford, P Joe Hayes and others and none held their bow in a remotely âclassicalâ manner. And none of them were âsloppy revivalistsâ, all having learned to play during the first half of the last century.
well, hereâs another one of the great West Clare fiddlers, the late Michael Downes, had his bowing mentored by Anthony Frawley and was a close associate of Bobby Casey from a very young age:
Instrumentalists are very precise about whatâs right or wrong in music although there are many ways of getting it ârightâ (and probably even more of getting it âwrongâ).
Thanks, Peter. I stand much better informed! One is very often only as well informed as oneâs last informant! (The main such person, BTW, in my case, had met and been tutored by Bobby Casey and Junior Crehan on several occasions.) Though it seems to me that, whilst not precisely âclassicalâ, the revered gentlemen in the first picture are using something similar there-to, just not at the very bottom extremity of the bow. That is pretty much what I saw in Sligo. The latter picture on the other hand⌠fair enough!
To be fair, there was no âdiscussionâ till you stepped in - just my (not entirely off-target) comparison, and I didnât intend it to hijack the thread. Indeed, if anything it now illustrates the central point even better about perfectly valid variant ways of doing things and their place in the tradition, with all its influences from varied sources.
BTW, superb photos! Your own? Lucky man to have such an archive! Have you got any similar nice ones of whistlers, pipers or fluters you could regale us with on the appropriate fora? Iâm sure it would be much appreciated!
) then it really depends on whatâs most comfortable for you. nothing to particularly fret over.
