I have only just started playing faster tunes, and have started with a (very) common hornpipe - Harvest Home. Could some kind soul tell me if I am heading in the right direction? I am mainly asking whether it sounds enough like a hornpipe to pass for one should I ever play it in public.
As always, say what you think… I have hide like a rhino 
. If it sucks, then say so (and preferably why).
Thanks in advance.
Hi Phil,
First of all, congrats on your progression! It is apparent that you are challenging yourself and that is what leads to progress. I would like to comment that, while there are (I suppose) right and wrong ways to play a hornpipe in the tradition, there is room for stylistic interpretation. It seems to my ear that a lot of beginners start out playing hornpipes with a very exaggerated deedle-dummada, deedle-dummada triplet swing but the pros always seem to have more of a 2/4 gate. I’m sure there are a couple others on the board who could explain this better than I.
See some examples here:
http://www.juneberry78s.com/sounds/ListenToIrishDance.htm
look for:
-the Harvest Home by Edward Mullaney & Patrick Stack
-Ballinakill Traditional Dance Players RICK’S - BYRNE’S
-John Joe Gardiner CUCKOO’S - THE SWEEPS
-Joe & Antoinette McKenna FISHERS - THE GROVES (my favorite hp from that page!)
-The Liverpool Ceili Band THE FAIRY QUEEN - THE WONDER hornpipes
As for your recording, your timing was pretty good and you were consistent to the end so well done there. The thing that bothered me was the over-tonguing (or maybe it was the over-shortening-of-notes with tonguing) which made the recording sound more like something that would be played on a fife by a military band. Give the recordings I referenced a listen and see if you can hear what I’m talking about with the rhythms. The first one is the same tune so that should be very useful to you even if it is structured very differently than your version. Also, I just can’t say enough about the McKenna recording.
I also recorded a quick version of the Swan last week (there’s a link to it in my signature) that you can give a listen to. I’m not saying that I’ve got it down or anything but it shows a different style of playing a hornpipe.
Also, just for funsies: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IcgpC9tZOic
The Harvest Home (known to him as the Cork Hornpipe) is one of Paddy’s party pieces and he really hams it up but it shows what can be done with the tune (and what a masterful player he is). I first heard him do this live a couple years ago and was blown away.
Those were quick replies, thank you StrayCat. Your comments are of the kind I was hoping to elicit. I have challenged myself - to learn a reel, a jig and a hornpipe well enough not to embarrass myself. The timing discipline is because I practice against a metronome, but I thought it might seem naff to record against one, so I played without. I play better against the 'nome, with fewer mistakes, which I find surprising.
I can hear the different timings you are referring to, I am not sure how I will change to them. Perhaps as an initial crutch I should change the time signature in the abc to 2/4? How essential is learning to ‘soften’ (?) the broken timing? Is a glaring ‘noobie’ thing that would irritate at a session?
Timing in these faster tunes is something that has eluded me. I turned St Annes Reel into a hornpipe, apparently, so thought maybe a hornpipe was where I should start. I was attempting to copy Ryan Dunns version - maybe a bit impertinent, or at least over-optimistic . I relate to the emphasised broken timing more easily. Perhaps this true for those other beginners.
The over-tonguing is a worry. I will have to analyse that more closely, though thinking when I am playing usually messes it up completely 
. I don’t have enough spare processor cycles.
Anyway, thanks for your comments - you have given me something to think on, and more challenge…
Mr. Gumby: Wow, I forgot about that site! Seems like a lifetime ago! Just went and listened to some of my clips and I didn’t even recognize them as my own playing.
Phil: I just wanted to make sure you knew I wasn’t discouraging your hornpipe rhythm-of-choice, just wanted to point out the differences (and sure I played them the same way for a long time). I think in one way the fact that you’re playing the exaggerated deedle-dummada rhythm will help you to get the subtlety down later on when you’re going for what you hear in the recordings. It’s like when we first practice rolls and cuts, they’re played in very exaggerated ways that sound nothing like they shoudl but it’s the exaggeration itself that gets our muscle memory into shape for proper execution as we progress.
Just a thought.
[edit] woops, Gumby deleted his post referencing whistlethis.com before I finished responding to it.
Ok, thanks for that. I had seen references to the variation in the ‘brokenness’ of the rhythm, and you pointed out that I am at the beginners end. That’s cool by me. Would it be fair to say that it gives me a direction for improvement, but is not an immediate worry? That leaves ‘over-tonguing’ for me to think about first.
Folks like you make learning a lot easier, thanks.
I had some similar issues with a hornpipe. I’ve only been playing since May, but I recently learned a hornpipe, Boys of Ballycastle, and I’ve been experimenting with rhythm. On the Whistle and Squeak sheet music, it notes, “A Hornpipe is played as if written in dotted 8th and 16th notes, giving a lilt.” Lately, I’ve tried to capture the lilt without too much “deedle-dummada triplet swing” that straycat notes, but it’s still a work largely in progress. http://www.box.net/shared/tx183mmr8u Next, I want to think about trying to add some ornamentation to the tune.
I think this is your main issue for now DrPhill, any other issue will iron itself out when you start playing with other people. Not just the tonguing but as straycat says the shortening of notes is also an issue. Why not try that tune again with no tonguing and long notes where they should be. Just as a learning process, not suggesting to give up tonguing.
It is nice to hear you progressing. It really takes a lot of moxey to put yourself out in public like this. Bravo to you for doing it.
I too think the exaggerated rhythm and your over tonguing are the main issues you face. I too would suggest no tonguing at all for a bit. You’ll find it quite difficult to keep the air stream steady and will probably also discover that the tongue has covered up some little rhythmic irregularities of your fingers, but the exercise is worthwhile. What to do about repeated notes on the same pitch? stick in a cut or strike as needed. You’ll want that ability later anyway. I come from the classical world where articulation (tonguing etc.) is a very big thing, and still find it difficult to avoid too much of it on the Irish tunes. But playing without tonguing has helped my fingers and my phrases. I highly recommend it.
You might want to play a bit slower too for a hornpipe, though that is open to discussion I’m sure. But, you do want a relaxed feel and a slightly slower tempo will let you relax and concentrate on not tonguing!
As you get further along you’ll want to vary the tune each time through. How? Do LOTS of listening to good players. Not just one player either. Eventually you’ll start to say to yourself, “Oh I can replace this pattern with this other pattern.” Then you’ll be on your way. In fact, listening to good players and imitating them is the best way to get the style right for all traditional music. Eventually you’ll stop imitating and develop your own style.
Straycat82 was a bit modest in not recommending his recording of “The Swan.” (See his posts above) It might not be a hornpipe, though I think it is, but is certainly is a textbook example of tasteful playing in that style and equally tasteful neat variation.
Thanks to you all.
Since I am not good enough to play at sessions, and not rich enough to pay for a tutor I am happy to be heard by you folks. Strangely enough I don’t feel it as brave, except in as much as it may be risking annoying the good folk in this community to keep asking for opinions. The response that I see is supportive, constructive, and very helpful. I always take great note of the advice. I hope that the advisers understand that if I appear go quiet it not because I have ignored the advice. To the contrary, at my early learning stages such advice points me to lots of work/time needed to improve.
The tonguing problem is probably exaggerated by the pedal-notes. I find it difficult to get a clean transition without tonguing, and once I start tonguing around the pedal notes I just keep on… So I need to slow down and put some cuts/taps/rolls from the start. Hmmmmm, sounds like the advice I keep seeing on this forum, but I guess I am ready to take it now 
.
It is interesting that problems with the clean transitions and the over-tonguing as compensation are problems with my slow playing too. I guess I know what to do now…
Thanks everyone
That Paddy Keenan clip was such fun. Made me laugh out loud. Amazingly rhythmic playing - absolutely fantastic. Of course. Now, as I’m new in on this thread, to go listen to Dr Phill …
I’m stunned, Phill. Huge progress, and great stuff. Now, to the specifics …
I agree about the tonguing (is that right? I always want to put an ‘e’ in there somehow). But there’s a specific problem with it, not just that you’re doing it too much. You’re doing it in the wrong places. Particularly those pedal passages. My suggestion with those is to spend lots of slow practice time playing just those pedal patterns over and over (eA fA gA fA | eA fA gA fA etc) with no tonguing at all.
I have another specific suggestion, which the rest of your playing shows you are well capable of doing at this stage, with a bit of practice: instead of playing the earlier pedal passages like this: cd | eA AA fA AA | gA fA eA AA try them with a roll on the lower As. Like this: cd | eA-~A2 fA-~A2 | gA fA eA-~A2 etc.
I’ve got more … but, for now, have - rather suddenly - run out of time. I’ll be back later if you need help with those rolls, Phill. (Oh, and out of interest, I thought your general rhythm was fine. I wouldn’t change it if I were you.)
Something else you can try in those passages if you are not ready to focus on rolls yet is:
cd | eA (3GAB fA 3)ABA | gA fA eA 3)ABA
OR, if you are comfortable enough with cuts you could also try this (the cut would go after the eA, just before the ABA triplet - I suppose you could also tongue it):
cd | eA (3ABA fA (3ABA | gA fA eA (3ABA
Both of these will help to make those eA AA passages you were playing a little more fluid.
How about triple tonguing the A as in eA AAA?
How about triple tonguing the A as in eA AAA?
Not a good idea. I think the first thing to realise is that a written tune does not necessarily reflect what a particular instrument would actually do. Triple A is not something a whislteplayer would generally do (although there’s always the odd one out, just before someone throws Josie McDermott at me).
Bro Steve’s look at what different whistle players do in real life could provide some insights in different styles. That’s what it hoped to do anyway.
And from that site Micho Russell playing Harvest Home showing how a very simple treatment combined with a spot on rhythm and total understanding can bring a tune to life.
And there is the Harvest Home getting the treatment on the long deceased Whistle This
Thanks Ben you are one of the unlucky few who heard my earliest rendings (sic) of dance music (but I was hoping that those had faded into distant memory ).
To all those who have suggested ditching the tonguing:
I have been trying to play without it, but the result is somewhat ‘dirty’ and unsatisfying. Is this the consequence of poor technique that I have been hiding behind the excessive tonguing? If so then that is an illusion shattered, for sure.
Thanks for all the suggestions to avoid a roll - I can just about manage a poorly executed roll. Would it be best to keep this in place and hope to practice it into shape later while concentrating on dropping the tonguing? Or should I lean one of the other variants? Remember that I am very slow to learn…
[[Paddy Keenan makes it sound so easy. Must be that fancy whistle he has…]]
[[Crossing with MrGumby, because I am a sllllowwww typer. I will go listen to those suggestions]]
Keep them all in your “toolbox”. The only way to get better at rolls is to keep playing them. The only way to get a tune down is to keep playing it. Still, I think too many people see the ornamentation as the end of the learning curve and some tunes lose beauty because of it. Playing a roll in place of every ABA or A2A, etc. in a tune doesn’t necessarily make the tune better. Call them variations or whatever you like but they all work musically and none is the more advanced than the other. They all have their place. Keep that in mind when taking any advice about ornamentation on the forums and you’ll be in good shape.
well done on the progress, good stuff, also good advice above. I agree about the tonguing, in relation to where you’re tonguing, and the over-relaiance on a slightly stiff interpretation of the rhythm you’ve chosen to use (some people play more ‘dotted’, some more straight). Have you watched any video of dancing to hornpipes? That might help too. I think hornpipes provide great opporuntity for variation in articulation and phrasing that’s worth playing with. I think the key is what was said about understanding the tune, that helps you to leave stuff out as well as to put extra stuff in. I’d suggest push yourself on practising those rolls (you can always tongue the first note) and be able to play any phrase of it without tonguing (you’ll find appropriate places to tongue for emphasis later if you want to use that). But also just lay back and enjoy the tune, get really familiar with it, experiment with different ways of playing it…and listen that Micho Russell recording even if you don’t copy it 
Heya DrPhil!
Argh - my agen just went foetal when someone posted Paddy Keenan’s version of the Cork jig at you!!!
Leme tell ya - he Cork is Paddie’s plaything - there aint no orgnism, man or tree, on this planet can do it like him!!! aND NEVER .. EVER .. WILLL. (amen). (damn caps-lock 
)
And if Paddy gets REAL happy(after he’s run outa tunes) he wil play “Cock o’ tha North” (which .. for some unknown reason I like!)
Your perfomance is unusually credible!! - Even my tame dawgs were dancing!
So you got the feel! - Not a pwned note int tha lot!
SO next is replacing all that tongueing with cuts (ouch) and rolls and such…
Everything starts with feeling - u is well on the way!
Thanx fer the clip! You can come to my sesh any day - so ling as you don’t mistake me for a spare tipper!! 
(Tell me you aint got a bodhran??)
(edited to say: MarkP - nice avataaaaarrrgh!)
Thankyou for your kind comments.
Stick: if I am ever down under I will try to make it to your session, thanks for the invite.
For those who are not bored with my playing, is this going in the right direction? The playing sounds less good to me, but that may be because my poor technique has nowhere to hide!
I find it takes more air to play without tonguing, and I am going to have to find some breathing points until my speed increases. Any suggested points to breath? Or should I be able to make an entire part in one breath? The B part seems harder.