Closed order books

Uilleann Pipes
21

I’m sure he is working on particular pipes that he is interested in or for specific people, and just sitting on the orders for those that he doesn’t feel all excited about- so as a newbie piper with a very plain set… it’ll be a few decades perhaps…

Not true for me, I work through strictly in the order that the orders came in. Hmm, that sentence needs work . . . .

What could be more dishonest and dishonourable than a maker saying sorry my order book is closed ,when what he is really saying is,” I don’t know you”,”I,ve never heard of you”.”you’re probably a rubbish piper so go away”.

Well the order book is closed, but when someone comes back and repeatedly says “I love that chanter and I want the rest of the set” and “OK I’ve saved enough for the bass regulator now” then it’s a hard hearted maker that sez “No the book is closed naff off”. I have heard of these people cos I made their pipes. I can think of more dishonourable things than that as I’m sure you can if you put your mind to it, sleeping with my wife’s 6 sisters at the same time springs immediately to mind . . .

The truth would be more like:

“I have enough orders to keep me in work for ten years but if you want you can still put your name on my list and maybe you wont have to wait that long. Or maybe you might get nothing cos I decided to make guitars instead, or moved to a remote smallholding. In which case that’s tough sh*t and there’s nothing you can do about it, I did warn you. And putting your name on everyone’s list is not very nice either is it so that’s probably it for your pipes, since you’re now old and grey.”

Which is not very honourable.

22

That’s an outrageous statement to call these makers dishonest and dishonourable.

Many makers will put instruments for top players at the front of the queue, even if their books are open, and I think that’s a good thing. Top players need access to the best equipment and everyone else benefits from the input they give the maker.

23

Qoute from a makers website

We do not have a waiting list at present and are very unlikely to have one in the future, as our instruments are made they will be advertised on our web-site, and will be subject to a first come first serve basis.

You would prefer this perhaps Rory - highest bidder takes all so if you want the set with out the wait and have limitless funds you are gaurenteed to get your set and be first in line

PIpemaker wins evry time

John

24

It’s fascinating, if a bit disturbing, to see non-pipemakers speculating about this.

Would it not seem stranger for a person (that is, a sole craftsman) to be making committments to deliver things 10 or more years in advance? Or worse yet, taking deposits? It does to me.

Most people find it hard to plan ahead 10 months with any degree of certainty, let alone 10 years. Same could be said for customers. Just having an “order list” is an implied public offer, and frankly I think it’s unreasonable for an individual to make public offers more than 4 or 5 years in advance; taking deposits seems a big stretch even at 4 or 5 years, and without a deposit, a name on a list doesn’t mean much to either party unless the two already have a degree of personal trust. In that latter case, it really isn’t a “public” offer anymore, is it? And who would quote a price 10 years in advance? Would you commit to buy something at an undetermined date in the future, for a yet-to-be-determined price? That’s usually what people on these long lists are doing.

I also have reason to believe that these long lists are often no more fair - perhaps much less fair and transparent, since people get moved about in the queues - than just closing the public offers window.

In the case of the 3 makers Rory named, we have two makers who certainly will be unable to fulfill their lists, being sadly deceased, and another maker who will be an octogenarian by the time he finishes his current list - assuming, unreasonably I think, that he won’t want to slow down production before then!

IMO it makes a lot more sense to pull down the shutters and take care of back-orders for awhile; as Sam says it’s a lot less stressful than perpetually adding to the queue in the waiting room, as it were.

If a maker’s work is in such demand that he (or she?) cannot keep up, then there are three options. One is to raise prices to reduce demand, which is undesirable in several ways; another is for the maker to become selective about customers in some other way; the third is to close the order books temporarily. Rory (who is probably not alone in this) seems to be complaining about all three prospects, if one reads all his posts!

Bill

25

By far the worst are the nubs who try to sell places on waiting lists.

Mukade

26

Does this happen? I mean for profit? I’ve seen people sell their place at the price of the deposit they paid so that they just broke even.

27

This topic comes up repeatedly. The supermarket consumer mentality still seems to prevail. There are not enough pipemakers around, and not enough venues around, for you to pick and choose. There are not multiple selections available for you to hem and haw over. The market is too small to bear this type of easy choice for the consumer. I think it is idiotic for makers to have even a 5 year list. Who could have forseen the current economic situation? How many here have already had to drop off a maker’s list due to changes in their finances?

You just can’t apply big market expectations to such a tiny artisan-level industry. It doesn’t hold.

I don’t understand why more makers don’t just turn out a batch of chanters or sets or what have you at one time, in the style of the maker’s own choice, and let the market dither over that offering, than to constantly be at the beck and call of a bunch of people who, quite often, have no knowledge base for making the number of decisions the maker often requires from them.

djm

28

I am seeing more of this as of late… David Boisvert and Jim Carrol being two that spring to mind. Seems to me a smart way to go for most concerned.

29

Dave, I agree 100% with what you’re saying about applying “consumer” values to the micro-industry that is pipemaking. The same rules do not (and should not) apply.

My own guess is that in 3 or 4 years, the “10 year plus” waiting lists will have thinned out a little to more realistic levels as the reality of the economic situation sets in.

30

Seth Gallagher has been doing this for years – employing help for bellows, ferrules, and turning drones, while he sticks mostly to chanters and reeds. AND he makes a superb product.

31

“Actually, I’d say that closing one’s books to new orders when the maker feels it is best to do so is a most honorable way of doing business. I’d much rather deal with a maker who was honest as to what he/she believed they would be able to take on in a reasonable time-frame.”

Agreed, a certain maker from Richmond, Yorkshire should have heeded this many years ago.

32

Let’s not go there, please.

33

I’m sorry your disturbed ,but you don’t have to be a chef to comment on the service in a restaurant ,you don’t have to be a mechanic to complain that your car is taking to long to be repaired and you certainly don’t have to be a pipemaker to be concerned about the future of Uilleann pipes.

To me long waiting list shows commitment to pipemaking ,the three makers I mentioned are/were dedicated to their craft and made pipes to the end and maybe Geoff will as well. Closed books say I’ll make pipes for awhile but then I may want to become a monk or join the foreign legion .

I hate elitism for who’s to say that the piper who is moved down the list for a “known” piper would not himself be a great piper with a good instrument.
Pipemakers who stroke their ego’s in this way are not doing any service to piping.

The long list worked for the modern great makers as shown by the hoards of people who put their names on those lists ,and the microcosm of the piping community that is represented on this board who are against them, are in the minority.

RORY

34

Not sure who eluded to this, unless you’re paraphrasing incorrectly. Pipe makers can make pipes for whom they wish. Don’t like it? Then I guess your choice may be to make your own, or lump it (or find another source). Elitism - to me that is a pejorative word for choice.

35

Pipemakers put in an awful effort into their instruments, at least the good ones do. Setting up a set of pipes requires a lot of mental energy, at least in the case of the pipemakers I know. As a result they like to see their efforts rewarded by seeing their instruments played well by good players. It’s only natural that when push comes to shove good players or promising young players slip in on the waiting-lists and take preference.

36

This is true,but the honourable one will make pipes for the next on their list not the “known” piper who thinks he has a right to skip everyone else.


RORY

37

I’ve heard that Alain Froment helped out a young piper, giving him the chance to buy a full set that Alain had just completed but whose original “purchaser” was no longer able to buy. Does this mean Alain Froment was not honourable because he didn’t offer the set to the next person on the waiting list?

38

I’m not sure what honour has to do with it, but what I said is that they will make pipes for whom they wish. What I neglected to continue with was - good piper, bad piper, rich or otherwise. It may be true that there are top-notch pipers getting preferential treatment - but it is certainly not documented and therefore extremely difficult to argue. I would move to end the ambiguity and pick up another topic. :tantrum:

39

I would move to let pipemakers sell their pipes to whomever they wish.

40

You are of course right,and we are just talking and voicing our opinions,not laying down any laws.

RORY