Can we please stop dumbing everything down to 1 or 2 #'s?

Irish Flute
21

Seems to me there are some issues here:

  1. Tunes often have a history of being played in a particular key. This might be because they were pipe tunes, or fiddle tunes or whatever, but a tradition has developed around playing them in that key. If you want to get along with the rest of the world you ought to learn those tunes in those keys. They shouldn’t be shoved into the !# 2# world.

  2. Some tunes don’t have that history and/or players of a particular instrument can’t reasonably play in that key because of the limits of the instrument they play on. Pieces in the key sig. of F major or Bb major for instance are awkward on D whistles, and can be darn near impossible on Octave tuned hammered dulcimers. If you play consistently with those folks (or lap dulcimer players who are not yet at a high level) you may have to give in to their changed keys. Ross’s Real #4 is a great tune in F major, but my friends who play octave tuned hammered dulcimers will not play it in that key. Neither adjusting notes nor finding the hammer patterns seems to work out for them. So they change the key and I don’t play that tune with them because I don’t like how it sounds in the changed key.

  3. When you play by yourself and for yourself or with a regular ensemble all bets are off and you can do what you wish.

  4. Sometimes changing the key is a truly unnecessary thing to do. Many folks play Margaret’s Waltz in G, but it really does sound better in A and can usually be played in that key. There seems no reason for the change except convenience…convenience that destroys some of the characteristic sound of the tune…at least to some of us.

  5. If you really learn your instrument you can probably play in more keys than you think. You can drive mediocre Hammered Dulcimer players out of a jam by playing lots of things in C, but the good players are just fine with that. That example can be multiplied.

Enough…Its late .

22

Intermittent or part-time notoriety? :really: :poke:

That’s our Guru! :laughing:

23

And it’s not just us! Joe Burke decided that Bonnie Kate and Jenny’s Chicken went better without those pesky F#s and now look what’s going on! Where will it end!?!?! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nIs_xrQ387s&feature=related

24

Most trad tunes are learned by ear, in that the melody is heard/learned, then memorized, then figured out comfortably on the instrument in hand. So, if I learn and play a tune on a keyless D flute, whether I heard it on an Eb flute, or it was a tune played in a key signature other than D or G, etc., or on that adds the odd incidental - it usually ends up sitting in a key comfortable for me on a D flute. Unsurprisingly, that’s often the key most other players play it in, too. Not laziness, dumbing down, nor lack of imagination. Merely practical. If a tune is played in another key, and I need to learn it in that key to play along, so be it. And sometimes I might place a tune in another key, 'cause I think it sounds nice there.

Regarding the idea that as players advance, they gravitate to and accept tunes in other keys - nonsense. Most of us have advanced listening and advanced tastes long before we chose an instrument. I started flute on a Boehm (well, I started on guitar), so, to me, tunes locked in D, G, Em were not the norm, anyway. Am I a more sophisticated player if I play a tune in a less comfortable key (assuming I’m on a D flute?). Did the tune get harder to play, somehow? Joanie Madden does that with a number of tunes, simply to make a tune set shift more dynamic, and because - with a Boehm - she does it relatively easily.

I think the OP’s original issue - that some tunes sit better when set in alternate key signatures (whether the ‘original’ key signature or not) - is definitely true. New, or interesting, tonal colors are achieved by shifting to different spots on the flute, and some tunes are enhanced by the change. Beyond that, I’m still not sure what the complaint is.

25

Most trad tunes are learned by ear, in that the melody is heard/learned, then memorized, then figured out comfortably on the instrument in hand. So, if I learn and play a tune on a keyless D flute, whether I heard it on an Eb flute, or it was a tune played in a key signature other than D or G, etc., or that adds the odd incidental - it usually ends up sitting in a key comfortable for me on a D flute. Unsurprisingly, that’s often the key most other players play it in, too. Not laziness, dumbing down, nor lack of imagination. Merely practical. Sometimes, it takes more creativity to adjust a tune well to a simpler set of notes than to play it “as written,” or prescribed. That said, if a tune is played in another key, and I need to learn it in that key to play along, so be it. And sometimes I might place a tune in another key, 'cause I think it sounds nice there.

Regarding the idea that as players advance, they gravitate to and accept tunes in other keys - nonsense. Most of us have advanced listening and advanced tastes long before we chose an instrument. I started flute on a Boehm (well, I started on guitar), so, to me, tunes locked in D, G, Em were not the norm, anyway. Am I a more sophisticated player if I play a tune in a less comfortable key (assuming I’m on a D flute?). Did the tune get harder to play, somehow? Joanie Madden does that with a number of tunes, simply to make a tune set shift more dynamic, and because - with a Boehm - she does it relatively easily.

I think the OP’s original issue - that some tunes sit better when set in alternate key signatures (whether the ‘original’ key signature or not) - is definitely true. New, or interesting, tonal colors are achieved by shifting to different spots on the flute, and some tunes are enhanced by the change. Beyond that, I’m still not sure what the complaint is.

26

I guess I wonder more about how it seems that people tend to gravitate to bottoming out the flute to the point of necessitating octave folding. Wouldn’t A Dorian (G?) fit the D flute with the fewest compromises?

27

@gordon & @cboody - there isn’t more more beyond that, you summed up my thoughts on the topic exactly.

@MTGuru - I changed the key sig at theangrysession.org to G dorian last night in hopes it would scare less people away. The F#'s are in the original music by Joshua Campbell who wrote the tune.

@dunnp - If changing the key makes the tune easier and little is lost, that’s fine. It’s very common with polkas and I have no problem with it. I’m talking about when the bottom or top parts of the tune need to be crumpled beyond recognition or simplified to the point of having to be covered up with incessant ornaments to make them passable. There’s also the tonality of the tune, a tune in Gmix has a F natural as the 7th and it can be colored or played slightly flat or smeared around with great effect on pipes, flutes, whistles etc - the G note has a different and much more direct quality. It’s the difference between Paddy Canny playing in mix and GHB piping - When it changes the tone, feel and melody that’s when it’s time to buckle down and try playing the two to three uncomfy notes for the sake of the music so the range of the melody fits on your instrument.

@ID10t - It’s due to fiddlers writing tunes that dip below the D. There are a few old tunes, mostly they came from Scottish fiddle reels that got picked up by the Irish. The bulk of them are more modern (I use that term loosely, I’d say 1920’s on) Sean Ryan and Ed Reavy spring first to mind I try to avoid it when I come up with a tune, I try to think about different instruments.

28

:slight_smile:

29

I guess I was more talking choice of keys transposing it from G dorian (or whatever key it was) in the first place. If your going to do that why down two keys instead of up one? If you’re playing a tabor pipe you would most likely have to do some folding, but the flute has a greater range.

30

I play in many keys on both keyed and flutes in other pitches. That I have no issue with.
It’s the idea that tunes are defined by tonality. While I love Gminor on the flute, can easily see why others might choose to play the same tune in Aminor.
Often Canny was taking an Aminor tune and bringing it to G min to exploit certain effects on his instrument. These tunes are not defined by being in Gminor they are simply played that way. Fahey tunes may be an exception (as an example) in that they are “composed” in other keys.
You have no issue with Canny exploiting the mutability of tonality to suit the fiddle but do take offense when a fluter might do the same to suit his or her instrument.
As for old timers griping it sounds unlikely, if anything playing in other keys is something I see more of not less of as the availability of good keyed flutes is completely different now than it was ten or twenty years ago.

This was set off by someone suggesting a different key for a tune you posted on the session?

By the way after typing this I’m going back to playing the Dear Irish Boy in Gminor fingering on a c chanter so its in F minor. I will still think of the bottom note as a D, funny world, no?

I play lots of Scottish tunes in G mix because I like it better sometimes on the flute fingering wrise, you should see what Scottish session players think of this. Too bad I dont have a nice keyed E flute.
The difference is not in tonality but in style. I am sure a scottish fiddler could take an Amix tune and shift it down to G and not sound like Paddy Canny. What if they tuned the fiddle down? What happens when you hear B pipes? Do you think wrong key they are playing that tune in?

by the way I dont really disagree just confused by your argument.

31

Yep, valid point (especially where string sonorities etc. are concerned)! So (and I’m basically for the standard/original key where there is one) I’m pretty sure The Sweetness of Mary was written in A, but I play it in G on keyless flute (because I’m not happy with the G#s I can get), or Ab on Eb flute, or A on low E whistle (all with ‘G fingering’). Sure I’ll start playing it in A on flute when I get my keyed flute, but Calum Stewart clearly likes it in F (he’s got low Cs!), so where does that leave us? :wink:

32

Brad cited monotony, and I get that. To a degree, I think there’s also an issue of deciding on convention. But the question is WHOSE convention. There’s the issue of what key a tune was originally composed in (if that is known), and there is ample reason for hewing to that; but there’s also the issue of what is common for it at - yes - sessions. I do feel that in the case of your usual session, and I define “usual session” as a social event where inclusivity is the ethos, then the easiest common denominator for the majority is a logical choice. I’m not saying that the easy way out is right, and it’s definitely not contributive to better musicianship, but if we are not to exclude, then it’s logical. Locally, the set Caislean an Oir / Her Golden Hair Flowing Down Her Back is typically played a step up from the original keys they were composed in, and most of us know full well that that is what we are doing, yet we continue to do so in the name of greater ease for all.

Imagine my surprise to learn in this thread that The Skylark was originally played as a C tune. But I learned it via sessions in D, and have heard it no other way, including on such recordings where I have heard it played. One can only know so much about everything.

When I first learned to play The Musical Priest I did so in the privacy of my own home, getting it under my fingers from the memory of what I heard at sessions, all with the idea that rather than struggling with it directly during the session and drawing annoyed looks, I should show up with a finished product. Well, memory’s fine and good, but I forgot to check on one crucial point: once back at the session with it, I quickly realised that the key of A was not the convention, and so I had to go back home and work it out again in B. As it happens, we’ve got an Irish expat, an Ould Feller, who won’t play it in B at sessions because he learned it in A, and if it won’t be his way he can’t, as they say, be arsed. It’s not a bone of contention, though; it just is what it is.

My favorite personal key for Sliabh Russell on flute is D because it’s dark and moody. I trotted it out one session and everybody played along, casting confused looks about and wondering how they knew it, because they thought it was a new tune they hadn’t heard before, yet they couldn’t figure out why they could still play it so reasonably well. Then I switched to A, the “Aha!” moment befell, and afterward they just about killed me. :wink:

33

Hiyah Brad,
Just had a go of The New Brig of Glasgow. I like it much better in your key for what its worth. Nice tune by the way.
Patrick