Budget Low D's?

Very thorough, I didn’t imagine you would go through all those details, I feel kind of sorry because I would have been satisfied with much less.

Indeed the prospect you outlined starts from the point where -say- Generation headquarters have to take the decision of starting a production line of cheap low whistles.
Of course the costs I previously categorized as “irrelevantly more expensive” are not so irrelevant from a starting point, moreover so in a market that has not the necessary appeal to invest in low whistles.
Well, if there was a market those costs would be really irrelevant, hell, Generation could even employ new people further helping the economy! :smiley:

Kidding aside, yes, there are costs that should be taken into account and your analysis is strong in underlining those costs, but if we look at the thing from a starting point of view, than how much would cost for a new brand setting up a high whistle production line?
Certainly less than a low (in this market), but their whistles would unlikely come out as cheap as a Generation or a Waltons or a Feadog’s and the like.

I would have imagined an already functioning department of Generation that made low whistles from the beginning and that way, most likely, we would have something that, like for the cheap high models, is fair to good (maybe also with the option of Freeman tweaked versions) and decently cheap.

The reason why such a department doesn’t exist (making a starting line even more difficult) lies in the market as you initially suggested and I’m now convinced that you are very right.
Who knows, maybe if we suggest to every new tin whistle player to play the low as well, in a few years we’ll have a whole new plethora of cheap low whistles, although (hopefully) by than I’ll be better at playing and most likely more demanding and aiming at something pricier! :smiley:

I never thought that a low whistle would be the same price or even less that a high one, although from my words above we can take the reasoning to an extreme of lows costing less than highs just because the market says so.

Still that “significant factor” in the right conditions can be, as explained above, less significant making the low whistles’ price just slightly higher than that of high whistles.

I dare say that those 25$ (less than 20€ and slightly more than 15£ so that many don’t have to go convert currencies) are not a mirage if they (Generation, Clarke, Feadog, Waltons, Oak etc.) decide to sell them.

Who knows, maybe they don’t even need to change machinery for a production line and them we can even hope for a little less. :smiley:

I would buy them and so would all of us because no matter how many Copeland and the like we have (or can have, I have none), we’ll always want to try all the cheapies we can as well, that’s why it is called Whistle Obsessive Acquisition Disorder.

:wink:

I’ve owned these low D whistles:

Howard
Dixon cylindrical aluminum (plastic head)
Chieftain V3
Guido Gonzato
Becker

The ones I still own are the Chieftain and the Gonzato. The one I actually play is the Gonzato. The Chieftain isn’t quite a “budget” whistle, but not that expensive either.

Comments from one who is far from an expert.

The Dixon had a lovely sound, and the second octave was sweet and easy to play. The first octave was, as you might expect, fragile and quiet. This is ultimately why I sold it.

The Howard had a strong sound throughout, but close to zero chiff. The BH3 hole was also quite a stretch. It was the sound, however, that wasn’t what I was looking for.

The Becker was similar in sound to the Howard. I gave it away to someone who liked that sound.

The Chieftain has an interesting sound, and more back pressure than the others. You have to push it. It’s non-tunable, however, and tends to be flat, even after warmup. I’ve played it in sessions and always felt like I had to blow very hard to push the pitch up, and never quite succeeded. This may be a fluke of this one particular whistle; I just don’t know.

The Gonzato has a reedy, flutelike sound. At first I didn’t care for this, but it has grown on me. The tuning is excellent, and it’s loud enough to be heard in sessions without screeching on the high notes.

It may be that the reason I came to like the flutelike sound of the Gonzato is that I bought a Tipple flute and started playing that.

Funny… this night I dreamed of myself playing a low whistle. So alright, I’ll give it a try. - Can someone suggest suitable PVC pipe dimensions? (Feadoggie??) I’ve still got some 18mm (id) pipe, but I guess that’s way too narrow, no?

Yes, give it a try.

18mm is not “way too narrow”. It is at the narrower end of what might work. I have used pipes with inner diameters from 3/4" up to 15/16". A 3/4" i.d. is right about 19mm. That’s a decent size. So you’ll not be very far off from that. A whistle with that bore will favor the second octave and you might have to work a bit to get the lowest notes to play strong.

The pipe I use most is white PVC cold water pipe which has a nominal inside diameter of 3/4" but it generally measures out to about 13/16". It has a thick wall and I machine the joints and mouthpiece parts to size.

There is another common 3/4" PVC cold water pipe which is thinner walled and has an inner diameter of ~15/16". That pipe has the advantage of being able to be used to make a Guido Gonzato low-tech type design. The thinner wall will allow the outer mouthpiece collar to be spread to facilitate construction easier than the thick walled stuff.

So try the pipe you have first.

Guido Gonzato specifies a 22mm i.d. pipe according to his plans. I like his low D. I like his whistles in general. The Dixon has slightly closer spacing on the lower hand though.

Feadoggie

Guido Gonzato has an excellent page with detailed instructions for making your own whistles. It looks like his design calls for 22mm. 18 mm might work for a low D, but it might not be a large enough bore to play overly well. It should be just about right for a low G whistle though.

http://www.ggwhistles.com/howto/index.html

Josh

Thanks! That’s good to know. So I can start right away! If 19mm is okay for a D, then 18mm should be just fine for an Eb or at least an F, I guess (even better, I like flats : ). I’ve searched for PVC pipe in various hardware stores BTW, the only suitable kind of pipe apparently available here is conduit pipe with a wall thickness of ~1mm. Which works very well for high whistles, so I’m quite confident.

Josh, thank you as well! - I know GG’s site, it’s great. But I don’t want a low G… this would still be too alto now, you know. So it’s always good to hear some further experiences; gotta experiment anyway.

You may want to read up on length to bore ratio for flute designs. Google is your friend. Ratios from 22:1 up to 30:1 get used by different makers in my experience. I try to stay closer to a 24:1 ratio. An 18mm bore would give you a ratio just over 30:1. So it is worth giving it a shot.

Feadoggie

Yes! One more step towards cheap Generation low whistles! :laughing:

Ok, kidding aside I’m happy for you that you decided to try the low, and don’t be discouraged if initially you find the handling hard.
I made my first low whistle following Guido’s instruction (although with a different technique for the fipple) and made the low C because I wanted to do something new after many high and the C was the BIGGEST of his tutorial.

I didn’t even know the piper’s grip back then and I simply couldn’t stretch my fingers without pain and cramps thus I just tossed it in a corner considering the low whistles out of my hands’ reach.
Lately I gave lows a new try making a D, slightly smaller so I thought I could handle it better and indeed, with far more knowledge about the proper grip, I could handle it pretty easily and, as it turned out, I could handle the C as well (and my hands and fingers are medium size).

As for the size, I used the 18mm (I don’t have it right now but I remember it was a 19mm bore) pipe for the contralto G and Bb (as per Guido’s instruction), but if Feadoggie says it’s worth to try, go ahead by all means and let us know how it fares because I have a spare aluminum pipe of that bore that I’m itching to operate on! :smiley:

If you want to play around with bore diameters and hole sizing/spacing I would highly recommend Daniel Bingamon’s hole calculator Excel sheet on this page. I used it to make a number of flutes and whistles in different keys. Each one came out well enough in tune. Any problems were most likely a result of my choices in the window area as well as not drilling exactly on the marks.

I had a go at a low d off gg’s site. I used a 22 mm outer diameter overflow pipe with a thickness of about 1.5 mm. I added a few mm to gg drawing to allow for the diameter difference and used the percentage gauge for hole placement. It’s a big stretch but the simple tunes that I can manage at the moment sound nice on it. I am thinking of making another one this weekend and offsetting the bottom hole for easier fingering. I also made the kids a whistle each in d using push fit central heating pipe. The results weren’t too bad so I am going to have a go at a few more different keys this weekend also. Although I do struggle with tuning but ok until I can afford to buy some new whistles

From the results in this thread, /viewtopic.php?f=1&t=84789, 22 to 24 mm would be a good inside diameter for a low D. Smaller than 20 mm I.D., and you’re likely to have weak low notes.

Yep, weak and quiet. This made the voicing rather challenging, but finally I managed to get the two registers reasonably balanced. Now they are both weak and quiet. :stuck_out_tongue:

No, actually it’s not that bad at all; some resonance and a certain amount of honk is well perceptible. It’s just some huskiness and intonation issues that I think I could cure easily with a bit more experimentation; but for now I’m fine with that funny low whistle. For the next one I’ll simply get some pipe with a wider bore.