I started playing recently on a Waltons that is near 20 years old. It hadn’t ever been played (been sitting in a box all that time), and quite rapidly the varnish on the brass body began to chip and turn green and otherwise look ugly. So I took some ultra-fine sand paper and ground it down to the bare metal and polished it up nice with some Brasso. That was great for a couple of days, but now it’s starting to turn black where my fingers touch it. Worse, it’s also starting to turn my fingers black where they touch it.
Does anybody know what I can do to get the brass to a state that is both attractive and non-messy? Or just non-messy, at least?
I have had luck using Turtle wax to keep my brass whistles looking nice. It’s not permanent though. If you want a more permanent solution, you could buy a clear coat can of spray paint and have at it.
You’ll find a lot of discussion on this if you use the search feature. Many inexpensive brass whistles have a “varnish” coat on them for just the reason you’ve stated. Many folks however, love it when the finish begins to wear off and refer to it as “patina”. Whether it’s a Waltons, Gen, Sindt or Copeland, it often gives one a little “street cred” and is highly desirable.
If you want your whistles to stay shiny, you’ll either have to replace the varnish or polish them from time to time. I’ve gone back and forth on this and have settled on “patina”. If you want to keep it shiny between polishing, you use a product called Renaissance Wax or many use different formulations of auto wax. It won’t last more than a few months but if you don’t, the tarnish will return within a few days/weeks. Some polishes and waxes are primarily petrochemicals and that may be troublesome for you as it is for me. If you choose to varnish be aware that it can change the tuning of the whistle if it gets inside the tube or reduces the hole sizes.
I generally only polish them now if I buy or trade for a used one and it’s really filthy or if I sell one to someone and they prefer it shiny. I use Nev’r Dull as it is excellent, fool proof, quick and a good washing with liquid soap after polishing gets rid of any odor or residue as I don’t know the ingredients but I’m suspicious. It also works on all metals. I find Brasso useful for brass only but it takes more work than Nev’r Dull, and the shine doesn’t seem to last as long, and I’m pretty lazy on this issue .
Brasso, or any polish containing ammonia used on brass, will tarnish very quickly afterward. I use Cape Cod polishing cloths. The leave an oil residue that retards tarnish, but must be stripped with a solvent if a spray laquer is desired for a longer bright finish.
I just bought some Rust-oleum Crystal Clear Enamel. I think I’ll give it another round of Brasso, make sure to wipe it off very thoroughly, and then give it a good coating. Hopefully that will last it for a good while.
The few times I’ve polished my Waltons Irish Whistle, toothpaste (the regular paste, not the gel stuff) worked the best. It did the job well, and didn’t produce nasty fumes. It, and the Generation Bb, usually just get washed with dish soap and water and given a rinse every once in a while.
tee hee, I polish my brass Burke about twice a year and each time I can guarantee someone will ask me about my ‘new’ whistle.
It soon fades back to a dull colour. If I play a lot, and I mean at a long session or day of classes, I end up with dark green circles on my fingers that don’t come off with soap.
I never polish my brass whistles. Keep clean, yes, but no polishing!
That patina is oxidation on the surface of the whistle. When you “polish” it, you are removing that outer layer which is oxidized… it occurs again, then you do it again, etc.
That outer layer of oxidation protects the brass that is underneath of it from further oxidation. Removing the surface just keeps going farther down and exposing more of the brass, which will get oxidized in almost no time. The patina has a protective effect, and gives it a nice antique look. I can’t imagine why anyone would want to be rid of it.
Besides, the brass is not going to stay shiny for very long. All that time spent polishing it would be better spent playing it and not worrying about the patina, which is not a bad thing.
I am not sure if polishing it is actually bad for the whistle or not… but I can’t see how it would be beneficial to keep removing the surface of the metal and exposing it to the same process over and over, and slowly wittling away at the surface. It’s really unecessary.
If you don’t like the patina, brass whistles might not be for you. I love brass the most, and I think the patina is beautiful, but that’s just me.
Anyway, it’s just what brass does.
Also, this isn’t even mentioning all of the chemicals and nasty gunk you are applying to the outside of the whistle. Putting all of that stuff on the whistle seems kind of counter-productive towards keeping it clean and nice.
After wasting a lot of time trying to keep brass whistles shiny, I have to agree with everything said here.
Having said that, I’m pretty sure I’ve read here before that when patina starts turning green or red, that’s actually mold that DOES need to be removed. That’s the only time I bother, when the patina starts to look like more than patina.
One thing I do is to wash my hands every time before playng the whiste. It is probably the oils, acids and salts causing your discoloration. I have brass whistes that are 20 years old that have no corrosion because of the clean hands. Also, once you have used brass cleaner, you can apply a coat of baby oil with a rag, and this will help prevent corrosion.
There seems to be some confusion about patina. As a coin collector/dealer for 5 decades, I can tell you about patina. It is found on uncirculated coins and can inrease the value because of the beautiful color patterns. (Uncirculated coins are coins never touched by human hands.) Oxidation over many years causes the patina. But when hands touch a coin, the oils, acids and salts corrode and actually deteriorate the coin. It is not patina, it is corrosion. If you were to look under a microscope, you would see that the metal on the corroded coin or whistle is actually pitted and damaged, while the uncirculated coin or untouched whistle doesn’t have this damage. Patinas can be wonderful colors such as blue, purple, red or rainbows, but corrosion is usually black or green. Patina’s aren’t dingy, dirty or crusty looking, while corrosion often is.
Are these coins made out of brass? Different metals react differently to corrosion, and perhaps it is different for the coins you are speaking of.
Brass patina is corrosion on the surface, as far as I know. And green is a regular colour for brass to turn. Remember what brass is comprised of. The colour of the oxidation varies depending on what compounds are on the whistle when it oxidizes (oils, salts, etc).
However, speaking solely of brass, a patina comes from a type of corrosion on the surface. On some other metals I think it can spread and eat away at it, but on brass, that patina on the surface is having a protective effect on the metal underneathe. Perhaps it can get mold on it, in which case you should polish it off, however, a slight green does not always indicate mold. Some of my whistles have a slight bit of green on spots, and it’s the patina, not mold. I do not smell any mold on them.
I have seen where some collectors of brass items go through certain processes to make the item have a specific type of patina, including a patina that is green. If you just search on google for brass and patina, you will find out a lot of useful information.
If something that is made of iron has any type of such corrosion, that is not a good sign, however. I do not know what coins are comprised of, but if they are not brass, then I don’t think it would apply to a brass whistle.
It’s been awhile since I did reading relating to this topic, so if I’m incorrect on anything I say, please inform me as to how, to help me better understand this. But as far as I know, a slight green is not universally indicative of mold, and a normal surface patina is not going to rot away your whistle. I would think it would be easy to distinguish a regular thin layer of patina from such a condition on the brass, however.
" For copper alloys, such as bronze, exposure to chlorides leads to green"
Brass is a copper alloy. Your sweat contains chlorides, does it not? Therefore, the green likely due to that.
Also, here you can read about the antimicrobial properties of brass
Not that wikipedia is entirely accurate at all times, but I think it gives a good starting point for understanding this. None of my whistles , including my session bore brass burke which I play daily, has had any bits flaking off or anything. Just a very slight layer of patina with some very minor green hue around the spot where I keep my thumb! Remember anything that is coming from your mouth or on your hands could impact what the patina is comprised of.
I just wanted to follow-up and say that the Rust-oleum Crystal Clear Enamel seems to have done a fine job. It is indeed very clear, and has a nice, smooth feel to it. I’ve been playing for a few days and there’s no sign of tarnishing and my fingers are nice and clean.
I will say that if you’re inclined to try this yourself, a little bit goes a long way. I just did a single up-and-down pass from about five different angles around the whistle body and it was a bit too much. There are places where it is “dripping” and a little ring around the bottom where it drained down. It’s not enough to bother me to sand it off and try again, but if you’re a perfectionist you’ll want to apply it sparingly. Much easier to apply another very light layer than have a thicker one that doesn’t look so great.
Oh, and be sure to roll up a half-sheet of paper (longways) and slide it inside to cover the holes and stick out either end. That way you’re not spraying enamel inside the whistle.
It remains to be seen how this stands the test of time, but for now I’m quite happy with it.
On fifes, the common ferrules are brass. They don’t take long to start looking yucky. Eight months ago, I replaced my ferrules with bronze, and they’re still looking splendid. No verdigris. Bronze may be OK for ferrules, but it doesn’t come in many sizes of tubing; neither does it lend itself to the re-drawing operations that may be necessary for whistlemaking (too bad ).
I just got a burke brass whistle used and it looked pretty nice when I got it. I never had a brass instrument or anything else before. My saxophone is lacquered. anyway.. the 2nd time I went to play it, I noticed the back where Michael Burke signs his name & date, it was all black. I couldn’t even read the date. and I read it just a few days before when I received the whistle. so I was really worried, I never saw that before. I thought I had damaged it in some way or something melted on it. I freaked out.
I took Fritz which is a metal cleaner I used on my saxophone and I knew it was safe for instruments. The website said it was ok for brass. so I put some on a tissue and scrubed the black stuff off and once I got it off, it was shiny and looked like new. That was pretty cool, but I don’t want to have to do that often.
I’m wondering how that black stuff appeared in just 48 hours between the first time I played it and the 2nd time. And why just in that spot? Is this the “patina” people talk about? It really was a dark black. Very strange. I am wondering if it was the humidity or cold temperature in the room or something else.
Now that I think about it, I did the soap treatment through the windway using Dr. Brommer’s peppermint soap and shook it out and then layed it down on a towel to air dry. I wonder if that soap had something to do with it?
I don’t mind a pretty patina so next time this happens I will just let it go and see what happens. In the meantime, if anyone with a brass whistle that has a nice patina can post a photo, that would be very helpful so I can see what this might look like.
I like the heavy weight & feel of brass, but it seems aluminum is much lower maintenance. My burke aluminums look relatively new, even the one I bought used and it is 10 years old.
PS: My MK whistle has a brass tuning slide and now that I think about it, it has some dark areas on it (but not black) and it’s not bad looking like that. So I guess that’s the patina people talk about.
I don’t know that such a photo would tell you much that would be applicable to you and your whistle personally. The surface of a polished brass whistle will want to oxidize if not coated in some manner to stem the oxidation. I’ve seen a wide variety of untreated finishes on brass, aluminum and tin whistles. The variety is a matter of environment. We all have varying body chemistry. We all live in different climates. We all expose our instruments to different things.
I play a set of brass Burkes. I store them in a bag made with individual sleeves for each whistle made of Malden Mills microfleece. That seems to keep them dry and away from the air. I do not really polish them but I do keep them clean. I could polish them up in a flash if I wanted to. I maintain a very thin coat of wax on them. I lube the slide periodically. I keep the windway clean and clear. They’ve never gone black. I don’t drink Guinness through them nor do I snort Mountain Dew through them either. But I’ve seen all manner of finishes on similar whistles.
Most of this seems to be a matter of hand and mouth chemistry. Have you ever handed a brass whistle to another player for a try? The difference in body chemistry is sometimes obvious. I don’t know what treating the mouthpiece with peppermint schnapps windway treatments would do but it may be a culprit. It’s easy enough to test out. Clean the whistle and put a bit of Brommer’s on the cleaned surface. That should do it.
And I really do not think that aluminum is any easier or harder to maintain. You just keep the whistle clean and the slide lubricated. No big deal for me anyway. Other folks may have a more caustic body chemistry than I have. Some get black hands from playing un-coated aluminum whistles. We are all different. So YMMV, as they say.
That black is definitely not normal, as none of mine have black. I think it probably was the soap.
I got a new brass burke once, and this is the only burke I had this problem with, but when I pushed the tuning slide in after I got it, a bunch of bubbles came out of the tuning slide! A few days later that whistle had some, not black, but very dark brown on that part of the tuning slide, that is normally slid in. I suspect those were soap bubbles, and that soap is not good for it. When using soap to treat the windway, I put it on a carboard strip and slide it into the mouthpeice, so it doesn’t get anywhere else. That is the best way to apply the soap trick on brass whistles, I think.
For simple cleaning, I use 91% isopropyl alcohol, or everclear, since it has a low amount of water in it, and any alcohol left will evaporate off quickly. I put one of those recorder cleaning sponges on a stick through the body (after applying alcohol to that sponge), and also clean around all the inside, then I wrap a peice of dental gauze around another stick (wrapped to almost the width of the body, so it wipes it all down, but is not too tight of a fit), and carefully poke it through and rub it around to make sure everyhwere got dried completely. This has not cauzed me any problems yet, and it’s not something I do only with brass, but with all whistles. So far my brass whistles have not required more maintainance than an aluminum, aside from being careful not to let the brass parts get wet, unless it’s with high % alcohol that is very quickly wiped off. Maybe it is good to polish it if you have a big black spot or very very dark brown spot, on second thought. From my experience with brass, that is not extremely common , at least yet.
Any yes, I noticed that the part of the tuning slide that I put a small amount of petroleum jelly on, does not have any kind of patina, but still looks shiny and new! So what feadoggie says about coating it is true, but I only apply something to the slide, so that it will never stick. Because of the nature of brass, it’s best to move those slides at least every 3 days. I lubricate them every 3 months, too, if needed.
Just to update the thread, my brass whistle looks like brand new where I polished it, even after playing it several times. I think that the black stain was due to the dr. brommer’s soap. if I do any more brommer’s I’ll be sure to shake out all the water and wipe it down well.
I play in an unheated room, it’s usually about 12-14C in the room in winter and my metal whistles get a lot of condensation. So that’s why I gave it the dr. brommer’s. I’m not sure it made a difference really.
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