‘Will you tell me what music you are playing?
I think I should have limited my remark to ITM.
The remark was meant for the OP, FWIW.
Of course maybe that individual is playing jazz or…
but for ITM lots of keys on a Bb flute arguably
add more weight than worth. They might be nice,
maybe not, given the weight of the flute,
but what would one use them all the time to play?
Sincere question.’
This isn’t ranting. I expressed myself in a careful and moderate way (e.g. note ‘arguably,’ which signals
that I didn’t think I was expressing a certainty), and I asked a sincere question. It really was sincere
and I appreciate your helpful answer, along with what others have written about why they need
keys on Bb flutes.
To all: It would be nice to express opinions, and ask questions, without folks
getting quite so exercised. Thanks for the info.
I wasn’t talking about you specificially and this thread (which is quite civilized), I was referring to people in general. There are a few candidates in the great big world who regularly tell all people who did not escape early enough that keys (and tuning slides, real timber, two seperate middle joints, flutes in other keys, silver rings, long foot joints and whatever) aren’t necessary and that their opinion is the only one that’s valid, and who show themselves to be completely immune to reasonable explanations. I’m just a bit tired of that. I’m sorry if you felt offended, that honestly wasn’t my intention.
gabriel, i think that you don’t need to defense yourself, because your replay was without any intention to insult anyone …
i think that people which are often at this forum alreadys know which opinion have worth more …
you are one of member whose opinion i respect more than others, because you are have proper background as maker, player ,etc…
among lot of replays i often first read replays of you, jon, jemm, migoya, peter laban, and then replays of other members…
and than i have clear picture about whole topic…
also, i don’t want to insult anyone ,but that thinks work from my side…
marin
I’m not completely convinced that “usually” or “generally” keys aren’t essential. The majority of excellent players perhaps don’t use them, however many do. In fact I’m not even convinced that 90% of the repertoire doesn’t need keys. I think it’s lower than that.
I’m with Jim on this one, I have no need for keys as I only play pure drop Irish traditional. I play in sessions and at home. I can understand though that a musician such as Gabriel has need/use of keys as he has explained his musicial situation. Some folks want keys other don’t, it’s all good, different strokes for different folks Bran, I played a keyless blackwood Bb Chris Wilkes flute some years ago in Sligo, really easy to play. Probably hard to get hold of one though.
This really isn’t the thread for this over-argued topic. Jim’s point that a keyed Bb may be heavy was a valid one to bring up here, not to have others somewhat defensively engage - yet again - in whether or not keys are necessary for ITM.
No one’, I think, is arguing that keys are not useful, or whether tunes (particularly ‘modern’ tunes written within the tradition, or the occasional tunes penned by accordion players) use them. They certainly open up possibilities. However, traditional ITM is largely be played without keys; just ask any whistle player. Now, whether your personal ear/style is drawn toward the few tunes that are not possible without keys - well, that’s cool, too.
What’s the argument, and why during a thread over a person interested in a Bb flute with keys?
Responding to someone’s statement that the weight is more than having the keys is worth is what a discussion forum is for.
By the way, this statement is interesting: “particularly ‘modern’ tunes written within the tradition, or the occasional tunes penned by accordion players”. Do you think these are the only two categories of “traditional” tunes that might need keys? That’s not been my experience.
As I said above, I’m not convinced that only 10% of the repertoire needs keys. Don’t get me wrong, I think there are so many tunes in the other 90% (although I think it’s less) that I agree you could get away with having a large repertoire and never needing keys. However this: “the few tunes that are not possible without keys” is in my experience simply not an accurate statement. There are many tunes out there, pure drop traditional tunes, that require keys (or half-holing, or I suppose you could pick up another keyed instrument, but these options aren’t for me). But I wouldn’t ask a whistle player. They’d most likely not have learned them.
Yes, this is what a discussion forum is for, but - considering the OP’s original topic - we’ve sidelined his thread, and that’s just bad form. I agree Jim wandered away from his intended point and into territory that is contentious to some, and that’s why you jumped in. In reading some of your statements, I responded, too, which prompts another reply. And so on …
Sometimes it’s best to ignore things and move along. We’re all entitled to our view.
Well, I don’t think so. It’s pretty typical of this forum, and its culture (waves at MTGuru), and it’s really the main reason any thread gets past page 1. It’s actually probably pretty typical of any discussion forum.
As a short follow-up, I received my second-hand Ormiston Bb with eight keys today and really love it. It’s a great flute and plays very easily. Also the stretch seems not worse than on the Aebi I had, maybe George changed something…to put this into context, I like it just as much as I liked the Grinter 8-key Bb I was able to try last weekend. The Grinter had more back pressure when playing, which I like, but also more “difficult notes” than the Ormiston. All in all it’s a tie.
I bet Grinter’s keywork is a whole load classier, though. Ormiston’s sucks IMO - aesthetically at any rate, though they function OK. That said, I think Grinter could do better with his foot keys - his plain (and rather thin-shanked) hockey stick touches are a cop-out, IMO.
If you want keys on a Bb flute but are concerned about weight, you could go with boxwood. I have a four-key Bb flute in boxwood made by Chris Wilkes and it’s lighter than my 6-key D flute in blackwood. The only problem of course is boxwood’s sensitivity to changes in humidity; mine doesn’t warp lengthwise but the tenons get oval-shaped if the humidity drops below about 45%.
The tuning issues with a conical-bore flute tend to get magnified with longer flutes, so I would be cautious about getting a Bb flute without the long C key (using the standard note names for a D flute rather than giving the actual notes on a Bb flute), because the C# (all holes open) tends to be very flat on most Bb flutes. You’ll need the long C key to bring the C# into tune unless you’re willing to do some serious lipping-up (which is what I do on my Wilkes, since it doesn’t have a long C key). Tom Aebi and Casey Burns have both done a good job at bringing the Bb flute closer into tune with itself, but most other Bb flutes I’ve tried can be challenging to play in tune, especially the C# but also the E (which tends to be sharp).
Dogwood is also a good choice if weight is a concern. My B flute is dogwood. It also has some humidity issues, but not so much ovaling or warping, but rather just shrinking and expanding. John Gallagher makes great flat flutes, especially the B. (Well, it’s the only one I have a lot of experience with)
I’ll put in a “happy owner” vote for John Gallagher’s Bb though mine’s keyless.
I’d also say that dogwood like Nico has seems like a dandy idea. I played John’s prototype Bb that he’d made of holly from a tree in his yard and I really loved that. I think it’s kind of a funky wood, though, which is why he just uses it for experiments. I was also impressed with how light Nico’s keyed B is in the few brief moments I ran off with it.
Alas, I know for the oval boxwood tenons. You get used to it … mostly …
Yup, the Grinter looked very pretty, especially if you’re a block mount and pewter fan, which is what I am. But for the price I paid I didn’t care much about the looks of the keys…and they indeed work very well, as the flute does…and that’s what I require a flute to do. Looking pretty is just a bonus.
As the owner of what is very likely the oldest Dogwood flute from a modern maker (Olwell delivered in 2004), I’d recommend against the wood unless you have allergies or some other reason for needing to avoid some of the more stable woods. My dogwood Olwell has remained quite straight and the wood is tough, but the top tenon has ovaled to the point that the there is wood on wood contact between the socket and tenon when the flute is dry. Once you play for any significant length of time…well, forget about taking the flute apart for a while, it ain’t gonna happen. In addition, dogwood seems to be more susceptible to looking dirty over time, and the grain of the bore raises significantly. But of course once the flute ovals, re-reaming is not advisable, or often even possible, so sanding becomes the only recourse, or living with a somewhat compromised tone and response.
So, like many woods that modern makers experiment with, down the road these woods often turn out to be not so suitable in the long run. Takes a few years for the flaws to show up in many cases though. Many years ago at Von Huene they made a number of instruments from lignum vitae. Seemed like a good idea at the time, I mean the wood had been used for submarine propeller bearings or something. Well, I was told that virtually all the lignum vitae instruments that were made eventually cracked, ouch.
I’d say unless some instruments have been out there 10 years or so in a given wood and you know how they hold up, you may want to avoid the spending a lot of money on relatively untested wood.
I will definitely watch out for those things, and in fact should be sending the flute back to the maker for it’s one year check up (it’s older than that now, I’m just reluctant to part with it).
However, as far as it looking dirty, that definitely has not been an issue. John did stain the wood. It’s also pretty stable, but I keep it humidified. There hasn’t been any sign of ovaling, and I know this is also not at all the first flute he has done. I think it’s a very viable alternative to boxwood.
From my own experience I can corroborate what Loren says about dogwood’s characteristic of swelling when being played; I owned that very flute before he did, and found that it would swell so markedly - and soon - that I had to threadlap it so that in a desorbed condition the fit of upper tenon and socket would have to be rather loose (to a fluteplayer, disconcertingly so) to allow for the difference; otherwise, as Loren attests, once the wood swelled you wouldn’t get them apart for a couple of hours at least. Absorption and swelling from loose to an acceptably firm fit would generally take only about 10 minutes or so of steady playing, IIRC. That’s pretty fast. Also, I found myself regularly polishing the bore because, as Loren also says, the grain rises with the humidity of playing. You would think that this would eventually find its balance, but oddly enough it never seemed to happen.
These characteristics were my only real disappointments with the material. Otherwise it’s unbelievably tough; “as nails” would definitely apply, although it’s also quite light in weight. Its tone had an assertive edge. Due to its nature of rapid expansion in the presence of moisture, though, IMHO it is not a good first choice for mouthblown wind instruments. But that’s me; I can’t speak to Nico’s own experiences. There was no ovalling I was aware of when I passed the flute on to Loren.
Loren, would a metal ferrule covering the full extent of a dogwood tenon be of any theoretical good in mitigating this problem in future instruments?
Bran, I played a keyless blackwood Bb Chris Wilkes flute some years ago in Sligo, really easy to play. Probably hard to get hold of one though.
though mine’s keyless.