Almond Oil to Linseed Oil ..

Close, but apparently Tom cold play “recognizable” tunes, which might make a difference.

:wink:

Actually I’m not revved up at all and am sorry you got that impression. I find the whole thing rather humerous, and am pleased you’ve got some new information. One more piece of information you might like to find one day is just why both Terry and Casey, the two longest established flutemakers who frequent this board, (unless I’m mistaken which is quite possible) both recommend using commercial bore oil. Meanwhile I apologise if anything I said upset anyone and am going to take a well oiled flute off to the pub to play a few tunes.

Cheers
Graeme

It may well be true, that commercial bore oil could be the best choice. :slight_smile:

On the other hand, perhaps no maker could afford to recommend a potentially combustible oil, given that today’s lawyers could corrupt almost anything.

:-/

That is, what’s a maker to say?

OK…my last word on this post,and thanks to all contributors…
I’m with Galfrex in that I’m a little uncomfortable with “the petroleum distillates that are found in most commercial bore oils”.I feel that a ‘Tree Based Flute’ should have a ‘Tree Based Oil’…Do’nt where this reckoning comes from really,perhaps a throwback to my ‘hippiness’ of the 1960’s..All things natural, etc.etc.etc…
So…for my Flute’s next lube,I’m going to go with a Cold Pressed Flax Oil (Linseed),food grade,bought from the health food shop…
Fare thee well,my own true loves…

I think I’ve been a bit abrupt previously in this thread saying you should just use what the maker recommends. So here’s the full length rant. Terry made the flute and recommends the same as Casey; also I was at a workshop with Michael Grinter three years ago where he said he had previously been recommending flax seed (linseed) oil but was changing his mind about that because people weren’t using it properly. Here’s what Casey says on his website:


After further review of oils and how people use them on their flutes, I am recommending regular commercial bore oil. I use fresh raw linseed in the workshop for the initial oiling, with the emphasis on “fresh”. Others use almond oil with a little vitamin E added. I recommend this less as these oils still have a propensity for going rancid, even with the treatment.


Notice the bit “how people use them”. Linseed oil reacts with air to go first tacky, then eventually hard. This is why it is such a good choice in the workshop because it can be used to give a long lasting seal to the wood. But when the average flute player uses oil they tend to use too much and then fail to wipe it out well enough. I’ve seen old flutes where some of the non-keyed holes were noticably smaller because of hardend oil. And keys that were gunged up and not moving properly, again with hardened oil the culprit. Plus keyed holes that were practically blocked with hardened oil. And the whole bore also with lots of gunge in it. On a keyed flute you need to take all the keys off if using linseed oil.

Now we are talking about a keyless flute so that should be OK shouldn’t it? Well if you have the flute warm and dry, the oil warm, and then apply it sparingly then wipe out/off as much as you can, carefully clean each of the holes etc remembering to burn the cloths you used, it just might be better than any other oil you could use. Except that you’ll probably get sloppy sometimes, and gunge will start building up. And some newbie flute player will ask you at the pub one day what sort of oil to use and you’ll tell them linseed oil, but they won’t pay attention to your description of how to use it, so they’ll turn their flute into a mess and it’ll be your fault. (Well not really your fault but you get my point.)

I’ve heard hemlock oil is even better than linseed and it’s natural too, unlike that evil stuff from out of the ground which is - oh damm it’s organic too. And that argument was going so well.

I think I’ve finished this particular rant now.
Cheers
Graeme

Oh well,maybe just one more …
Yes Graeme,I reckon you were a bit abrupt…but then again,sometimes ones real thoughts get a bit lost in the journey from the mind to the page…maybe thats what happened here..Anyways we’re all grown ups and at this stage,I feel no need to stick pins in a GraemeGroxburgh doll :slight_smile:
This is the way that I usually oil my Flute…
I absolutely slosh the Almond oil on…outside and inside…leave it for a few hours and then remove ALL the excess oil…I do this excess oil removal Three times,using clean cloths each time.The Flute is then left for a day or so before I play it…I’ve done this ever since I have owned it and ,so far,so good…
I’ve just gone through this same process using Flax Oil…and feel good about it…The Flute has a nice smell and sheen …
So far …so good…
The one negative that seems to be cropping up about Linseed Oil is the ‘glug factor’…excess oil drying and forming a residue…
Something that no one at this stage has adressed is…
DOES COLD PRESSED FLAX OIL,FOOD GRADE,DRY AND HARDEN ?? Like Hardware Store Linseed Oil does ??? Is there a drying agent in the Health Food Store product ??
I’ve just soaked a piece of Gidgee in Flax Oil …I’m going to leave it and see what happens…
Bye for now…I thank you for your input…

Yes healthstore “flax” oil will harden. The hardware store “boiled linseed” has extra stuff added to make it dry/harden a lot faster.

Cheers
Graeme

Ahhh, I love these oiling threads. Whoops, out of popcorn, be right back…

Do you remove the thread before oiling? Which end do you start on? :confused:

Well, you know I’m a cork kinda guy, can’t stand thread really.

That said, my preference is to simply throw the entire flute with keys, pads, cork (or thread) and all right into a pressure tank filld with hardware store boiled linseed oil, then crank the pressure right up and let the flute sit in there for a few years. This makes sure that the oil doesn’t miss any little nooks or crannies, and ages the flute quite nicely.

Once the flute is removed, I finish by throwing a match on the flute and burning off any excess oil. This obviates the need to wait for hardening of the oil. Produces a nice finish as well, with out the need for any of that pesky nitric acid staining.

Heck, I ain’t a feared of no stinkin’ lawyers…




Loren

Food grade flax oil has no additives and will polymerize over time, but slowly. The hardware store variety “boiled” linseed oil has metallic driers and petroleum distillates added, and these make the product poisonous. The metallic driers speed the polymerization. If I recall correctly, the petroleum distillates, by thinning the oil, make the oil more easily absorbed by the wood and make it easier to apply uniformly. If for no other reason than the fact that “boiled” linseed oil stinks, I would not put it into the bore of an instrument.

(Warning: Rant to follow.) There is a lot of conflicting information written about oiling the bore of wooden instruments, and some of it is best described as romantic hogwash. Wood is not alive and it does not breathe. It does absorb and release moisture, and the rates at which it does this depend on its environment, on the wood species, and on any applied finish. E.g., rosewoods (dalbergia species) are naturally oily, so probably absorb/release water more slowly than something like maple. If wood is heated, it will loose moisture and shrink — this can cause splits in the wood. (Never leave your instrument in a car/solar-oven on a sunny day.) I suspect that the rationale for oiling a bore is to slow both the absorption and release of water by the instrument, thereby keeping the wood from cracking/distorting. One problem with most wood finishes is that they do not hold up well to dampness. Any oil or other finish in the bore of a woodwind will therefore need frequent repair/replenishment, especially if you don’t swab the instrument regularly. The questions I have are:

  1. If you swab a wooden instrument regularly, do you even need to oil it?

  2. Does it make any sense to use a polymerizing oil (e.g., linseed/flax, many nut oils) on the bore of an instrument? — I can argue both ways on this one. Using it adds solids to the bore — this might be good, bad, or both.

  3. How do you clean the bore of a wooden instrument? Water and mild detergent, followed by a quick swabbing?

Some more of my own oily rants. These are facts- not romantic hogwash - based on years of my observations in 28 years of flute making, talking with colleagues like Rod Cameron and violin makers such as David Van Zandt who are at times alchemists of the highest calibre, my own testing experiments and excellent references (see the “Artist’s Handbook for Methods and Materials” by Mayer - one of the best for a lengthy and up to date discussion on oils and everything else for that matter!).

The flax oil in the food stores I would avoid for these reasons:

  1. these are not hot sellers - so this oil has been around a bit and may be going rancid by the time you purchase it!

  2. these oils and all food grade oils for that matter, although “natural” are unpurified and have many water soluble impurities that Must be removed before use on an instrument. This is done for Cremonese violin varnishes (oil and fused amber) on a regular basis. Simply the oil needs to be mixed with several changes of distilled water then decanted to remove these impurities. The water changes will get cloudy until these are all removed.

The Art Store variety of Linseed is essentially raw oil, to which this process has essentially been done, though usually chemically by solvent extraction. It remains a drying oil however and so there is the danger that it will polymerize. Then if exposed to ultraviolet light (improperly stored - and it only takes a little!) it polymerizes quicker - and is considered “Stand Oil”. This is used as an oil paint grinding medium to add viscosity.

The Hardware Store Variety is essentially paint - without pigment. They have added metal salts (called driers) which initiate a fast polymerizing reaction which also heats up the oily rags in minutes. The raw oil does not do this - I have never seen this in 28 years of oily paper towels sitting in my shop for days). Comparatively - the raw oil will polymerize on a rag over a day or two.

Other oils (Almond Oil, Poppy Seed Oil, Walnut Oil) must follow the same guidelines of being purified to remove water soluble impurities. Note that these impurities, if not removed, promote bacterial activity that also leads to rancidity. Thus the off the shelf Almond oil from the food store should be water purified first. Adding Vitamin E may or may not have a benefit. I have not observed much benefit from the Vitamin E.

The purpose of oiling is to not provide a water vapor barrier. There are better things for that that the maker may apply when appropriate. For instance, when I send flutes to some dry climates like Colorado I seal the end grain with these, typically a Spar varnish used for sailboats in salt water environments. Oil cannot penetrate through this! Rarely I seal the entire flute.

The primary purpose is to keep the wood supple in the alternatively wet/dry cycle the wood is exposed to by playing then setting the flute down. Water vapor penetrates the oiled wood. That is unavoidable. But oiling will allow the wood to handle this well.

An analogy is Hair Conditioner. Shampoo the oil out of one’s hair with a strong soap and that is fine except it then breaks off a bit. The conditioner helps restore flexibility to the hair. Oiling a flute will help preserve split ends!

Depending upon the wood vs. the oil’s molecular size - the oil will penetrate variously. Note that oil that has begun to polymerize is molecularly larger thus will penetrate less. Thus the importance of non-polymerizing oils or oils that are fresh.

The commercial bore oils - even if mineral based - are entirely fine to use on these instruments. Linseed Oil from the art store is fine if not already beginning to polymerize. The shelf life of this oil is effectively a few months - unless you are a maker in which case it is applied as oil and as varnish and something in between. A non drying mineral based commercial ore oil is actually more appropriate for the end user.

Cleaning a flute bore is something else and more or less a balance between the needs of one’s personal hygene vs. how much damage swabbing might inflict on an instrument. I recommend approaching a flute with clean hands and mouth (wash your hands and brush your teeth) whereas the practice drinking, eating, and playing in a smokey pub and pouring Guinness Stout down the embouchure as a bore conditioner is best to be avoided.

I’ve seen a few flutes such treated and then put away and they turned into interesting moldy microbial environments, better as compost at this stage! Amny of the woodwinds available on eBay are such vectors (I’ve seen this in clarinets which I tinker with). Worst case was a basement in Hays Kansas packed 100% with the instruments from a marching band school, including some rarities. Unfortunately the basement had flooded several times before my friend purchased the collection. The mold was particularly horrible.

When I was a bicycle mechanic one bike came in for repair that reminds me of some of the worst case scenarios in the flute world, and dealing with people’s germs etc. The person hadn’t heard that the war with Japan and Germany had ended three decades before and to him Bacon Grease was still an important strategic material. Thus the entire bicycle was lubricated with it and to prevent rust - every bore (handlebars, frame, etc.) was packed to the gills with it. We had no choice but to send the entire thing to the “Dipper” where they used strong and dangerous chemicals to strip varnish off of old furniture. Did no good and eventually we threw the bicycle away and gave him an equivalent one out of our loaner pile. Yuck!!! I couldn’t stand the smell of bacon for years and now only gingerly approach it (that is, wuith lots of ginger or something to mask the smell).

Casey

As it so happens, I was in the Olwell workshop last week and had a discussion with Patrick about this question. Patrick does, at least some of the time, use raw linseed, a.k.a. flax, oil on the bores of new flutes, to lay down a base-coat, so to say. However, he doesn’t recommend using it as a follow-up oil, preferring instead either olive or pharmaceutical-grade almond oil. This latter recommendation appears on the poop sheet that accompanies his instruments. In the absence of really good sweet almond oil, looks like olive is his recommended oil. Popeye would no doubt approve. Cheers,

Rob