Hey guys,
Do you throw in the rolls as you’re learning a tune, or do you add them in after you’ve got it down?
I can throw in all the cuts, crans and taps in a fairly short period of time (not well of course, but they’re there and to the untrained ear sound how they’re supposed to 
) but I have to stop and think about where the rolls are going. So do I wait until my fingers move themselves to start inserting rolls or then does it just become hard to change what I’ve been doing?
If you are talking about deciding where to play rolls, you’re not playing from sheet music are you? 
If you drop the sheet music this becomes easier.
If you are talking about playing the rolls and you have to stop and think, you are playing to fast. Assuming of course that you can play cuts and strikes (as very fast blips). Slow it down like to 50 bpm, 60 bpm, even slower if necessary until you are at the speed where you are not trying to play “a roll” but rather three notes with a cut and a tap between them.
Thanks Bloomfield. That is just what I need right now.
Ron
Thanks Bloomfield.
I think maybe it is just not knowing where to put them, I’ll do a forum search later tonight and read up on that. Actually I’m working with the Och’s book and I’m really, really trying hard to go by the cd. I find that, even though I do know what they sound like, I’m having a hard time deciding when what I hear is actually a roll… maybe I’m just not as smart as I think I am. 
When you start playing really fast, what is the difference between a short and long roll? Number of beats it takes? Like a short roll is 1 and a long is usually 3?
It has nothing to do with smarts, I think intelligence can actually get in the way, because you start analysing the buggers too much and listening too little. (Bro Steve’s litany.) So listen more to rolls until you know what they sound like, and it’s ok to read along on the music to help you figure it out at first.
When you start playing really fast, what is the difference between a short and long roll? Number of beats it takes? Like a short roll is 1 and a long is usually 3?
A long roll sounds like Dah-blah-blah or yaah-blah-blah and a short rolls sounds like “burythem” said quickly.
Long rolls: space of three eighth notes;
short rolls: space of two.
Here is a suggestion if I may: Go to the tune transcriptions page
http://www.rogermillington.com/tunetoc/johnnycopebarry.html
and listen to Johnny Cope played by Margret Barry. You’ll really hear the cuts, taps, slides, long and short rolls. And you can read along to see what’s what if you are confused.
~ means roll in the transcription, J means slide.
For example:
In measure 3 you have a clear yaah-blah-blah long roll (clearer second time around).
In measures 9 and 13 you have very clear “burythem” short rolls on G.
In measure 19 you have clear Dah-blah-blah long rolls.
There are lots of other short and long rolls in there, listen also for the use of tonguing (all the B-c#-d triplets are tongued).
Bloom, your knowledge never ceases to amaze me!
Wait till you see my matchbox car collection. 
(but this stuff isn’t exactly arcane, you know.)
Thanks a million Bloomfield, you’re a big help.
This is one of those cases where the answer is, “Yes.”
I always learn a tune with some rolls in it – to my ear, they are part of the fabric of the vast majority of reels and jigs.
Once I’ve learned a tune, in the course of normal tune variation I will add rolls in places that I didn’t originally learn them in the tune, and remove them from the places I did learn them. Sometimes these are learned variations – as you keep playing a tune (and listening to other poeple play it!), you get a feel for what can be done with it. Sometimes it is completely on the fly, and if it works well, you remember it for later.
In the end I think it’s coming down to throwing out the sheet music, as Bloomfield said, and to start training my ear. I just recorded myself on my computer for the first time and everything sounds completely different, not bad, actually alot of what I’ve been playing sounds right compared to what I was doing before. Learning by ear seems a daunting task though.
When I started lessons, my teacher had me playing rolls right away (I already knew the notes and could play half dozen simple tunes so I wasn’t a true beginner). He gave me easy tunes, had me play them slow, and include the rolls. The first one was Off to California I think. Nice little rolls on the G, which are the easiest. Strive to achieve the sound, and remember, rolls are rhythmic devices, not notes.
You could use the sheet music as a reference at the beginning to at least get a feel for which notes come after which notes. Then put it away and learn by ear. The way I learn is I memorize it from the sheet, then put it away and listen to the tape/CD and try to imitate it. I’m a good mimic.
If I had to learn from ear from scratch, I’d never learn a tune. I have some sort of disconnect in my brain that I can’t get past. I need the visual help in the beginning. (I’ll confess that if I really tried totally by ear I’d probably get better at it. But I’m good at reading music, and a little lazy).
IMHO there is no substitute for listening to great ITM players as much as possible. Spend at least as much time listening as practicing.
I’ve just started to be able to start doing the roll, half-correctly anyway. The Tinwhistle Tunebook by L.E. McCullough has some really nice tunes in it and a fair amount of rolls, with symbols that is, in the tunes. Also they are a nice speed to learn from. — I would like to play more about ear myself though. I’ve gotten into the habit of playing a tune out of a tunebook a couple of times and then moving on to the next one. Maybe a better idea to at least play a tune over and over to memorize it. That’s not exactly playing by ear, but it’s a start!
I’d suggest listening to good playing to get a firm idea of how a tune is phrased- where the commas and periods are- how the melody is divided up aside from the basic 1234 count. That will teach you more than anything where to apply ornaments and breath pauses. You’ll also note that switching rolls for cuts, breathing pauses, or sustained, slurred notes and vice versa is commonly done for variation. Again, it’s not the specific ornament that’s as important as where and why it’s applied. This is where printed music really fails. It’s good for memorizing the succession of notes, then, it has to go.
Tony
Wow. Thanks for bringing up this page. I started listening to the other examples</a](http://www.rogermillington.com/tunetoc/index.html">examples</a)>.
Good stuff!
I really like Rolling](http://www.rogermillington.com/tunetoc/ryegrass.html%22%3ERolling) in the Rhy Grass (played by Kieran Collins). The second time
through the A part, the rolls take on a very percussive beat. They almost sound
like a foot tapping. I strive for this, but have yet to achieve it.