I have to agree with Kevin here.
There are bucket loads of pipers and pipe makers that don’t follow this list at all, for several reasons I’m sure. To be honest I didn’t know that this list existed until I moved to the US 9 months ago.
Pipers in Ireland do have the advantage of having plenty of pipe makers around them and access to regular classes. No matter where you live in the country there is a pipe maker no more than an hour and a half away. 2 hours max. Irish pipers don’t need to go online to get info on reeds when there’s a potential new one a few hours away.
That said it would be a great thing if more of the expierienced pipers/makers did offer a thought on the list now and again. It would be a shame to discourage those voices because of louder ones. To quote a very prominet piper,
“I wouldn’t bother me bollix signing up to them things, you give some one a bit of advice or help answer a question and some other cheeky f***er comes along with a big fuggin mouth and says your wrong when your trying to help, me bollix”
I think some people like our friend just get hacked off with crap service.
Yeah piping is tough and you get pissed off with the things from time to time. There are makers out there who really shouldn’t be plying their trade. There are excellent makers who are a pleasure to do buisiness with and who really know their stuff.
Why shouldn’t those pipers who have a problem and feel that they can’t turn to anyone else for support get their back sides chewed off by some of you on this forum.
Cottage industry or Not if the things don’t bloody work what use are they?
If you make crap pipes you should expect the fall out
I think that Dale has a good question and there have been some good answers.
I will add my perspective… here goes.
Firstly, the instrument itself is not easy to manufacture or to play. That means one can have the combination of good maker/potentially good player, good maker/bad player, bad maker/good player, bad maker/bad player, and gradings in-between.
Secondly, the flute and tinwhistle (to my knowledge) have ever been close to extinction and a break in the methodology/skills involved in making good sets.
Thirdly, we in the 21st century have a heightened sense of consumer awareness. We as consumers think that even the small one-man pipemaker should have the same resources as a large multi-national musical instrument manufacturer. I think some pipers have unrealistic expectations or lack of patience or lack of common sense.
Then add in the usual amounts of human shortcomings.
Put all of this in a bowl, stir it up and put it on the internet. Personally I am surprised that there isn’t more trouble than what Dale is seeing.
Dale, if you want to get a feel for what it’s like to deal with this particular forum long-term, drop David Daye an email. He’s managed/moderated the uilleann email list for years.
Whats lacking isn’t common sense but a common understanding of what a player is wanting from a set of pipes and what a maker is giving.
I don’t give a fig who the maker is as long as he knows how to make the instrument he is SELLING. If he is just fannying around then don’t expect to sell his pipes for money. Give em away and get a proper job
I appreciate those of you who provided serious answers, as I am in an uncharacteristically serious mood.
I’m not afraid of the prospect of being sued over this forum. No one is going to sue me over this and, if they did, I’d regard it as fuel for stories I could tell for years. I’ve long concluded that, perhaps for good reasons, a lot of people in the world of piping love to threaten legal action. Who the hell knows what that’s all about?
Here’s my problem. I don’t particularly WANT to provide a forum for people to complain about pipemakers. I have no way of evaluating the fairness of a critical post because of my near-complete ignorance about the instrument and the makers thereof. An unfair post can do damage to a person’s livelihood–a prospect I don’t enjoy. Some have said–and I’ve said myself–the maker can come on the forum and defend himself. But why should a pipemaker be forced to participate in the forum? An unfair criticism can be ignored, which may not be advisable–else the maker is forced to come on here and defend himself. I don’t like putting people in that position. There are appropriate forums for working out business disputes. Letters. Telephones. Email. I’ve just decided I’m not having it here.
I understand that pipemakers can protect themselves by conducting business in a professional way. But that doesn’t provide complete protection. And, with these waiting lists and these prices, some people will inevitably get mad and there may not be much about it that is fair.
I’ve recently had to delete, from this forum, a criticism of a pipemaker that explicitly accused the maker of alcoholism. Any decent person with any sense should know that it beyond inappropriate. What would make a person DREAM that such a post is an ok thing to do? I am horrified that that post stayed up long enough for people to read it. I am technically, legally, and most importantly, morally the publisher of this forum. I felt responsible and furious that some idiot would put me in that position.
Here’s my next question–Who believes that the positive value of this forum outweighs the nastiness? Is there enough genuine educational value to warrant its existence? If not, I think it would be a good time to pull the plug and I’m not convinced there’d be much grief at its passing.
I for one feel that there are a great deal of positive uses within this board and would not like to see it dismantled due to a few bad apples. Think of all the sessions people get to play in when they travel out of town, all the questions that get answered, all the beginners that get pointed in the right direction because this forum exists.
When a question about a maker comes in I think it only right that the “PM” function be used and with the express agreement of the person receiving the “PM” that it remains a confidential interaction. No maker should have to deal with the public humiliation that has gone on here from time to time. People need to talk to their pipemakers if an issue arises, it’s completely and utterly pointless bringing up issues on the board that belong between two individuals. A day of private thought in heated situations is a must, write the message and save it on your hard drive. Talk to the maker (or whoever) directly, re-read the email you wrote the previous day and then see where it takes you, knowing that if it’s inflammatory it will be deleted and you will be banned.
Is there a way of setting up a rule system? A three strikes sort of model? Basically every person on the list could be the monitors. Then I suppose because we are in an over-analytical society there’d have to be rules written up and followed… preferably not. Hopefully people would understand what decent conversation is and if they don’t keep within that boundary their posts get deleted and they get banned, after rigorous review and if positively deserved.
Thanks. I have no problem with someone posting a message that theyhave a so-and-so chanter (or pipey-thing or bag-deal) and they don’t like it and here’s why.
What I object to is—this chanter is a p.o.s. and the maker is a con man. I also object to people using the forum to report “bad experiences” with makers. They may have legitimate complaints, but there is NO WAY for these to be fairly mediated in this kind of forum. It’s not the place.
Thanks again for your constructive suggestion and feedback.
Dale, I missed the thread with accusation of drunkenness. Could you repost it? Just kidding, of course. I don’t know where you could easily draw a line. People want to know which makers are recommended, who to stay away from and why.
Obviously, personal attacks on a maker or player should not be tolerated. That would be mean-spirited, and not the sort of information-sharing that we, as a community, are trying to promote. Would it not suffice to privately warn someone when they’ve crossed the line, or are we becoming too much of a burden on the moderator? There’s lots of lively debate here, and I love the great sense of humour of many of the participants. Is there some method you could offer that we could police ourselves?
To pull this list would be a sad affair…all for the reason of one or two individuals who seek to turn this forum into a public whipping post for real or perceived wrongs done unto them.
I find this list to be of great value to my piping endeavors, but I am also dismayed by the irresponsible, rude and highly immature threads that appear from time to time. I have to wonder what the average mental age is of some of this forum’s contributors… if I went solely by the content of their threads I would have to guess that a few are still wearing emotional nappies.
It is my hope, Dale, that you will not pull this list just yet, and that you will give it some time to right itself. Which means that the rest of us take more care in what we post…and how we post it.
Dale, for myself, the Uilleann pipe forum has been the source of a great wealth of information. It has kept me focused and interested on the pipes during a 3 & ½ year wait. (which I fully expected from day 1) I have posted before that I learn a lot here and I really mean it. I learn from my own questions and the questions of others being asked and answered. Most of the people on the U.P. forum are really helpful. P.D. makes the same point:
To me the greater good far outweighs the work of the spoilers. I hope you don’t pull the plug on it. Thanks.
Thanks. I really am not asking people to plead with me about this.
Let’s do this for now: Help alert me to problematic posts. I’d be particularly happy to hear from people who aren’t the subject of inappropriate posts. I’m going to delete and lock more than I usually do. Let’s see how that goes.
I wish to see the forum continue. I primarily lurk and don’t contribute much. Every time I think of something to say, someone posts an opinion, in agreement with me, before I do. (like this one)
Things can get weird and hostile sometimes. S’gonna happen. I have also even recieved appologies from people who hadn’t offended me in any way. Geez, that alone is worth keeping the list!
Recent general economic wreckage has affected my business more than any rumors, gossip, misrepresentations and, yes, even screw-ups of my own making. And even that’s not much. I am still struggling to stay on schedule, and no one is bailing out, thank goodness.
I personally Accept that this forum is not the place for slagging off others.
I wouldn’t do that kind of thing, nor do I think others should.
I do however understand that when someone has a grievance thay feel a need to share this with others.
Yes a valuable forum and a great resource.
I do sometimes feel that some of the forum users who feel they have had a rough time for whatever reason have been treated a little heavy handedly on occassion.
Sometimes people act out of desperation. Whilst a cool head is a good thing, I can understand some of the frustrations that some forum users may feel.
I do understand all of that. Truly. Some of the posts critical of pipemakers have seemed to me to be relatively fair.
What I’m responding to, however, is a scenario something like the following analogy.
Let’s say I make $4000 widgets for a living. For 10 years I have uniformly happy customers. Then I have an unhappy customer. Could be I screwed up. Could be the customer was unreasonable. In any case, the customer is mad. The customer goes on the widget forum and airs his case. The 10 years worth of happy customers are too busy being contented and using their Wisely Widgets to bother to post re: their happiness with said widgetry. I get wind of the critical post from a friend. Perhaps I have to borrow someone’s computer, locate the forum, register, and post a response. Perhaps the response ends up being a who-ya-gonna-believe deal. Maybe the customer is so mad that he forgets to mention some ways that maybe he has contributed to the misunderstanding. Maybe.
Now someone comes on the widget board and wants to find someone to send $4000 to for a new widget. He sees this exchange. He doesn’t know who to believe. Here he finds another widget maker who has no complaint on the forum (which bears no direct relationship to whether he HAS any unhappy customers–just none have posted). Who’s he going with? The second widget maker. It’s not fair.
THIS would be fair: five or six people post deliberate and well-written and reasonably complete accounts of why they are not happy with their widget. That is NOT A PROBLEM.
Here’s another difference between the u.p. thing and the whistle thing. If I make four to eight $4000 widgets a year, any ONE complaint has a lot more power. If I make 500 whistles a year, at $80 or something–one complaint is just one complaint. (And this happens: Every whistlemaker on the planet has a percentage of unhappy customers). THere’s a lot more data for people to use to judge the whistlesmith.
I could go on, but I think instead I’ll watch another hour of the 2nd Lord of the Rings movie. I’m watching the whole series in little segments because whenever I try to watch one all the way through I fall asleep.
I’ve found this forum to be of great use and have especially appreciated the clips and snips section. A good deal of the advise posted here has been posted in kindness good humor with a wide varience of opinion and solutions to fit almost every situation. At times, however, the comments of the unbalanced are posted in wreckless disregard of the people they are aimed at. I figure that’s because it’s easy to wax lunatic at someone who can’t smack you in the mush when the are half a country or an ocean away. Sarcasm doesn’t translate well in print.
When we talk about being nice on here, we are generally preaching to the choir as most of(not all)those who get most blatant on here rarely contribute anymore than the occasional pot-shot. I don’t envy you the moderator post, but I can only suggest a system of warnings to the offenders that their behavior will not be tolerated for long and their removal would be warrented if the said behavior continues. This could apply to all forums.
I’m learning to make pipes myself, but have seriously considered not making U.P.s professionally just to avoid the slagging that can come from an unknowledgeable or disgruntaled customer with an axe to grind who can type on a forum more quickly than they can think.
Marc
P.S. Find a buddy with a big screen tv to watch The Two Towers with you.
It’ll keep your attention better than on the small screen. No no-doze though, or you’ll have a heart attack during the scary bits.
I have had many questions answered on this and the other C&F forums about whistles, reeds, pipes, makers, Irish music, clearing customs, and so many other things. I have burned contributions to clips and snips to CD’s and I listen to them during my commute. This forum has made it possible for me to pursue the learning of this very lovely instrument. I also don’t believe the local Salt Lake Pipers group would have started without this forum. I am deeply grateful for the time and energy you have taken to provide this forum.
That said, may I suggest that comments about makers be limited to “I would buy a set from this maker” or “I would not buy a set from this maker”? People who wanted more information could PM individuals for a more complete story. Individuals could draw their own conclusions without all the flaming, slagging, whatever.
I’ve had my share of inappropriately heated debates inflicted upon me by a few people on this forum, but overall, its a great resource, one I always recommend to students and new players.
I’d rather see some agressive suppression of free speech rights than having to resort to closing the board. After all, this isn’t a government run institution.
Wasn’t finished… 
Just kidding, of course. I don’t know where you could easily draw a line. People want to know which makers are recommended, who to stay away from and why.