A Serious Question about Chieftains and Susatos

Whistle
1

Not trying to start a fight here, just get a question answered.

I have a half-dozen or so Susatos (Kildares and Dublins) in various keys. I also have Chieftains in Low F and Low G. I know the Chieftain is derived/descended from the Overtons and I don’t know the history of Susatos.

Anyway, to be blunt, I can’t say I have any love for any of them, although I have a great deal of affection for various Overtons, Water Weasels and a Silkstone PVC.

Leaving aside the Susato Dublin low D, which simply can’t play because my hands are smaller than those of, say, Shaquille O’Neal, I decided to really try with the others and see if I can’t develop some affection for them. After a couple of weeks of trying, I still don’t like them, but I think I’ve finally figured out WHY.

Compared to every other whistle I own, cheap or otherwise, these two brands share one characteristic that makes them very uncomfortable for me in particular - extremely short lip relief. By that, I mean the curved area of the mouthpiece from the tip to the point where the mouthpiece matches the circumference of the whistle tube or for a plastic-fippled metal whistle from the tip to the fattest part of the mouthpiece. In both cases, the whistle feels, for lack of a better description, insecure on my lips when I’m playing, as if it literally wants to slip off of or away from my lips. To put it another way, they feel not as if they are between my lips but as if they are only touching my lips.

For example, the lip relief of a Susato Kildare D is only half or less than that of a Generation, Silkstone or Overton (Goldie) D. Similarly, the lip relief of a Chieftain Low g is no more than 60% of that of an Overton A, a slightly smaller whistle. interestingly, I don’t see the same situation on the only small Chieftain I own, an Eb, whose mouthpiece shape is almost indentical in profile to that of an Overton E.

These whistles represent an unfortunately significant excess of WhOA, so I really would like to ask Phil or Kelhorn.Mike or anyone else who knows the answer why this is so. Is there some significant reason for the design as it sits, or is it merely a factor of design esoterics?

2

Chuck,
The stories I could tell if it wasn’t
for all the toes I might be steping on…
maybe someday I’ll elaborate on your
post but not now. Hope someday we’ll
convert you to a positive reflection
on SUSATO but it’s probably not
possible. No offense I hope…

Kelhorn Mike

3

Chuck,
I feel exactly tht same about my Dixon D. I find it difficult to play because it doesn’t feel stable in my mouth. I found myself wondering why the mouthpiece was made that short. Does the length of the airway before the blade affect the tuning/sound/etc.? Perhaps one of the whistle makers could comment.

Mike Burns

4

I play Susatos, Clarkes, Abells, and Shaws-- guess what, short mouthpieces all!! On Saturday, I received a Copeland D in the mail, opened it up and played it for two hours. A beautiful whistle, as you all know. Its mouthpiece is slender and long. I soon noticed something I’m not used to-- my inner upper lip (say that 3 times fast) kept working its way in between my front teeth and the mouthpiece. Ouch! Now I have to find a way to adjust my playing. “Play through the Pain” is not a solution here! :slight_smile:(Never is.)
Anyway, it’s interesting that I have the opposite problem.

5

The Susato head may not be everyones cup of tea but neither is the long flat narrow airway design.I personally like Susato.I like the others.Susato represent in many ways the perfect balance of form,function, affordabillity and consistancy…quality control is simply a non issue here.In the beginning they were everyones darling,now we only criticise.I dont get it,a little more praise and a lot less blame,hey folks?. Mike

6

I like a mouthpiece that is a bit longer. But I was under the impression that the “right” way is to keep the mouthpiece out at the lips. This way you don’t touch the mouthpiece when tongueing, and you can direct the wind correcty (whatever that means.) If that is the case, then the Susato design “forces” the player to do it right. Can anyone comment on the question of “on the lips” vs “in the mouth”.

7

On 2002-09-30 12:41, mike.r wrote:
The Susato head may not be everyones cup of tea but neither is the long flat narrow airway design.I personally like Susato.I like the others.Susato represent in many ways the perfect balance of form,function, affordabillity and consistancy…quality control is simply a non issue here.In the beginning they were everyones darling,now we only criticise.I dont get it,a little more praise and a lot less blame,hey folks?. Mike

Although I had a dig at Susato lows recently, I agree very much with the drift of Mike’s comments here. I said back then, and still think, that the highs are good whistles and I would happily record with one if I thought it was right for the context. They’re well-crafted, nicely in tune and show all the signs of good quality control. Mike got their virtues right IMO. I don’t like the lows because they seem to lack a bit of character and not because they aren’t well-made. By all means let’s reveal our favourites—why shouldn’t we make aesthetic judgements—but let’s not forget that Susatos excel in areas where more favoured brands are shamefully negligent. Quality control is important. Credit where credit’s due.

[ This Message was edited by: Wombat on 2002-09-30 13:26 ]

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But I was under the impression that the “right” way is to keep the mouthpiece out at the lips. This way you don’t touch the mouthpiece when tongueing,

Ahhh! I have a Dixon D and Waltons D, Waltons has a long mouthpiece and Dixon a short. I just noticed that I normally put the Walton much further into my mouth, even against my front teeth. THAT is probably why it would get all clogged with moisture halfway through a song!
Sorted!
Stella

9

On 2002-09-30 12:41, mike.r wrote:
Susato represent in many ways the perfect balance of form,function, affordabillity and consistancy…quality control is simply a non issue here.

I agree completely, based on my experience with the Susato D VSB, D SB, and Bb SB. If someone doesn’t like their tone, then that’s a subjective evaluation (and therefore not universally applicable). However, they really are easy to play, have good intonation, and are consistent across the two octaves.

I have gravitated toward slightly preferring the tone of the Ó Briain (how the h*** does one pronounce “Briain” anyhow?) over that of either of the Susato D’s, although there are certain similarities in tone, and the Susato VSB may be slightly easier to play.

I would choose the Susato D SB for session play (if I were good enough for the only session I know of in my general area).

10

When I first got my Sausato D VSB, I was surprised at how short the mouthpiece was – more like a small recorder. But I got used to it right away. I wonder if the longer design of the ‘classic’ styles has more to do with tradition than sound.

Anyway, I love my Sausato. What I’d love more is one that plays just like it but is a third as loud, for practicing.

11

Susatos are very well designed.
The Abell is based on the
Susato, in fact. One difference
in the Abell design that I
prefer is that the short lip
is gone. The fipple simply slopes
backwards in a straight line.

12

Two months ago when I started on the Dixon Low D, I sorta used half ‘on-the-lip’ method. Nothing affected me, until I started playing more on a particular day.

My cheeks hurt the next day, for like, 2 days. A longer curve helps you ‘rest’ the thing and for me, to use less cheek movement, therefore less (after)pain.

That’s me.

13

I find the shorter mouthpiece (a la Susato) works okay for a high D, but once you get into low whistle range it becomes a problem (I’ve just had my Grinter low D adjusted to suit). I prefer the longer mouthpiece (beak) because (embarrassingly) I tend to dribble out the sides of the Susato-type beak. Doh! secret’s out

14

On 2002-10-01 05:24, nickt wrote:
I find the shorter mouthpiece (a la Susato) works okay for a high D, but once you get into low whistle range it becomes a problem (I’ve just had my Grinter low D adjusted to suit). I prefer the longer mouthpiece (beak) because (embarrassingly) I tend to dribble out the sides of the Susato-type beak. Doh! secret’s out

Well Nick, I think I’d better tell Michael that when I have that chat with him you were urging me to have. But wombats drool too—in the nicest possible way, of course—so he might listen to my advice on improved mouthpiece design. Then again, he might not …

15

On 2002-09-30 12:41, mike.r wrote:
In the beginning they were everyones darling,now we only criticise.

Winner of the 1999 poll!

16

You know it’s ironic: everyone always mentions how loud Susato whistles are.

When Pat and Sam McReynolds and I recorded the Arran Boat, Sam is playing a plain untweaked Susato whistle, and I’m playing my old German flute.

Now German flute’s aren’t noted for their volume; in fact, they are usually criticized for their sweeter, softer sound.

But to balance Sam on that whistle, I am holding back about as much as I can on the flute. At the time of the recording, I already had my first M&E flute, but we couldn’t get the balance to work with it: it was just too loud and almost entirely covered the whistle.

The recording I am referring to is at

http://www.flutesite.com/fianna/arran_boat.mp3

Now there are other things I’m not proud of with this recording: we were all younger players then, and in particular there were intonation issues.

But I think it does show the volume of the flute vs. the whistle nicely.

For the curious, the mike setup was three mikes at angles about a foot or so apart, and the three of us each about two feet back from the mike, so that we almost formed a triangle around the mikes.

Best,

–James
http://www.flutesite.com

17

On 2002-10-01 05:32, Wombat wrote:

On 2002-10-01 05:24, nickt wrote:
I find the shorter mouthpiece (a la Susato) works okay for a high D, but once you get into low whistle range it becomes a problem (I’ve just had my Grinter low D adjusted to suit). I prefer the longer mouthpiece (beak) because (embarrassingly) I tend to dribble out the sides of the Susato-type beak. Doh! secret’s out

Well Nick, I think I’d better tell Michael that when I have that chat with him you were urging me to have. But wombats drool too—in the nicest possible way, of course—so he might listen to my advice on improved mouthpiece design. Then again, he might not …

Wombat, I suggest you mail me direct on this one for a discussion about it. Mike makes some of the world’s best whistles (his client list is a testament to that), but there is IMO room for improvement in the beak design. My address: nickturner@hotmail.com

18

Thanks for all the comments positive
and otherwise. Though we don’t feel
a longer mouthpiece is really necessary
or desirable it is something we will
consider in the future. Making or
adapting injection molds is big, big,
bucks. Yea, I know, it shouldn’t come
down to just economics but it is a
factor…On a lighter note please
realise that the heaviest Susato Whistle is
under 6 ounces in weight and one should
be able to hold that in it’s proper
place. Consider a pint of Guiness is
16 ounces plus the glass and I don’t
have any trouble spilling until after the third pint…and thanks Chuck for the
idea about selling our Low Dublin -D-'s to
NBA Players. Shaq is probably to busy
but I think I’ll send free samples to
Larry Bird & Magic since they now have
plenty of free time in retirement and
along with their natural physical gifts
they also have the fortitude to learn something new and challenging…Thanks again
everyone and enjoy your whistling.

Kelhorn Mike

19

On 2002-10-01 15:43, Kelhorn Mike wrote:

On a lighter note please
realise that the heaviest Susato Whistle is
under 6 ounces in weight and one should
be able to hold that in it’s proper
place.

Very punny… :slight_smile: