I love this quote. After a newsgroup thread about a Scottish whistler who just can’t keep quiet for a second and constantly ornaments, every other note so all the other wind instruments sound flat, somebody sent this Zen Guitar quote to the board. “In Zen Guitar the acquisition of technique for its own sake is not the path to musicianship…Technique is what enables us to articulate with efficiency and clarity. But first we must have something to say. Sometimes a player with crude technique has more to say than a player with impeccable technique. Whose song is more uplifting? Acquire the technique you need, and no more. That is the way of Zen Guitar.”
Very thought provoking and it can easily be applied to the whistle or any other instrument. I’ll remember that next time I play C# and somebody else does a cut on Bflat.
I’ve decided I like the Zen approach and will head to the library to see if I can read some more as it seems to take a calm controlled approach to life. And I need one right now.
I would agree in principle with this outlook- A certain degree of technique is required to play any instrument,but technique alone DOESN’T make good music.
I would far rather listen to a player who uses ornamentation with ‘taste’ to spice up a tune,whilst letting the beauty of the basic tune shine through,rather than the musician who buries the ‘meat’ of the tune in florid ornaments.
I received an album from Custy’s yesterday,Jack Coen on flute,accompanied by his son(?) Jimmy Coen on guitar.I must say that I enjoy Jack’s ‘basic’ approach very much indeed-lovely,‘clear’ Flute playing with just the right amount of ‘seasoning’!
I suppose the acronym K.I.S.S. (‘Keep It Simple,Stupid!’) is very Zen.
That Zen thing is valid, but it seems to be directed to serious, seasoned players. It would be too tempting for beginners or less serious players to use as an excuse for being too lazy to learn proper technique.
Also, there seems to be this idea growing that you learn music one little discreet piece at a time, and that’s just not reality.
You have to learn rhythm, ornamentation, technique, intonation, listening, tone, attack more or less as a unit. It all works together, and if you are missing any part of it, it’ll show.
I think tasteful ornamentation is always a good thing, and that’s why I’ve come to prefer tunebooks that don’t “pre-ornament” the tunes. But you still need to have good ornamentation skills because properly used they can give a tune lift and drive.
I think the comment ‘tasteful ornamentation’ from peeplj is excellent. But when somebody is ornamenting every three or four notes it goes way over the top and stops the tune coming through.
I’m not sure about tune books and not showing the ornamentation. For the beginner I think at least seeing grace notes on paper is useful. It can give a basis to work from as not evrybody can play by ear. I’ve tried copying tunes from CD and often they are too fast to copy the ornamentation.
I think the comment ‘tasteful ornamentation’ from peeplj is excellent. But when somebody is ornamenting every three or four notes it goes way over the top and stops the tune coming through.
I’m not sure about tune books and not showing the ornamentation. For the beginner I think at least seeing grace notes on paper is useful. It can give a basis to work from as not evrybody can play by ear. I’ve tried copying tunes from CD and often they are too fast to copy the ornamentation.
I’ve thought the same thing about the books not showing ornamentation. Even at the rank beginner level, they cut or roll seemingly every other note without showing it on the notation, and I was wondering why, when I played it as written, it didn’t sound like the CD. Of course, I figured this out at some point, but they could have maybe played an unornamented version, then the ornamented one to show the difference and how they get that sound. This should esp. be the case when it’s a tutorial, since the purpose of it is to teach technique, and esp. at the beginner level since, well, when we’re rank beginners, we don’t know a lot . . . Perhaps also they should play a slow version and an up-to-speed version. (Granted, I haven’t seen every tutorial, and some may already do this, but some of them have been confusing to me in that regard since I read music. I’m learning ear playing more now, but needed to see it written at the very beginning).
One problem with including ornamentation in the sheet music is that it only indicates where an ornament may be appropriate; it gives no indication of how it is supposed to sound. In IrTrad, cuts and taps are indicated by grace note symbols, but they are not at all like the grace notes used in classical music. Likewise, a roll is indicated by the turn symbol, but it is not played at all like a turn. The only way to understand how to properly play and fit ornaments into the melody is by listening to how it is done by an accomplished musician. Having them indicated in the sheet music is of very limited value.
Unfortunately, I think average players who over-ornament (for whatever reason) would be very surprised to hear others think they ornament too much and thus lose the tune. Those I can think of off the top of my head wouldn’t recognize themselves in this category - and therefore wouldn’t take any steps to undo what they’ve gotten in the habit of doing.
Susan
The common problem I witness with ornamentation and beginners, overdone or not, it the heavy-handedness that ornaments are given. They tend to be as long and loud as the melody notes, so that, while they may be in the right places, they overwhelm the rhythm and the notes on the beats (same thing). Wherever they show up, they should accent the rhythm, not overpower it. If I’m having trouble sorting out the notes on the beats from the notes that are ornaments, the ornaments are too forceful (and maybe too slowly executed). Matt Molloy plays a heckuvalot of ornaments, but he gets away with it because he plays them correctly. Same thing with the really good pipers.
Tony
John Skelton, always one for a good story, told us that the “old timers” used to have a great comment regarding players they found not to their liking:
“…if he put in what he left out and left out what he put in, he would be a fine player”
My Zen whistling position is: I will only learn whistle, not aspire to “move up to flute.” Nyuk. Whistle is hard enuf for me, having started later in life …
i have to agree with you there again ridseard.
but zen can’t be accomplished without pure belly breathing either, that’s where the only pressure on your body has to be.
The friend in Oz who sent me my first whistle told me not to worry about onamentation, it will happen. I’m of the school that if you have to work at it, it’s too dang much! I have an index finger on my right hand that just slips into a roll at times, and that’s fine! Maybe I’m just lazy!
I happen to have the Zen Guitar book, and like it, but I honestly think the guitar great Segovia said it much better, and more succinctly, with regards to the accumulation of technique:
“The hands must find a way to play what the heart feels.”
I was listening to a couple of my favorite tunes a year or so ago and was thinking they only had a very few ornaments in each tune. Then I ran it through at 70 percent speed using some software. I was suprised to find a lot of ornamentation surfaced. It was then that I realized that irish ornamentation was not aboutl grace notes in the normal or classical sense; but, something much more restrained and quicker. In gracing an quarter note, I had envisioned an 16th grace note. What I heard in the irish ornamentation was more like a 32nd or 64th. As a result the primary note was dominant to the point where you didn’t actively hear the grace note. It was just a tonal enhancement to the start and/or end of the dominant note.
I think folks who ‘over ornament’ usually sound too busy because too many of the grace notes are held too long. Usually, if they are held to the point where you actually here the note; then, it’s too long. Many Irish ornaments aren’t full grace notes but more like the suggestion of a grace note. For example, if I’m cutting the E, I shouldn’t be able to hear an FSharp or Fnatural, but rather and E that is just a little closer to Fnatural. As another example, if I’m sluring from an E to an A, I shouldn’t be able to find any note between E and A; but rather, just a steady slide up the frequency.
I also agree, that what ever is added in terms of ornament or style has to be compatible with the heart of the tune. I don’t mean the fuzzy emotional connotation of the tune, but rather the heart, the center, the essence of the tune. For example a march should pound, it shouldn’t pitty-patter or slide all over the place. A lament might hesitate, or drag, or slur, but it shouldn’t skip and bounce.
This is what I’ve been discovering over and over again. I hope its what Irish traditionist hear, and not just me projecting into the music. Either way, I find listening for tone, and rythmn, and that indefinable essence of each tune is the best way learn to release the same in my playing. Ornamentation is just a projection of what is heard and felt, when my ears and heart are attentive.
Helps me enjoy the music. And I always think it should be about how you …
It was then that I realized that irish ornamentation was not aboutl grace notes in the normal or classical sense; but, something much more restrained and quicker. In gracing an quarter note, I had envisioned an 16th grace note. What I heard in the irish ornamentation was more like a 32nd or 64th. As a result the primary note was dominant to the point where you didn’t actively hear the grace note. It was just a tonal enhancement to the start and/or end of the dominant note.
That’s what I said! I used the word ‘heavy-handed.’ This is absolutely true. Lighten up and use the ornaments to ‘grace’ the melody notes, not add to them. (There are exceptions, of course. Some triplets need to be evenly divided up.) And like Lee also said, get the feel of the tune first and work from there.
To be realistic, when you’re starting out, it helps to think of these things mechanically (for me, anyway). We can wax lyrical about how the music should be played, but, for the beginner, you first have to figure out the mechanics. So, if you’re going to use grace notes, keep them light and quick.
Tony
“In Zen Guitar the acquisition of technique for its own sake is not the path to musicianship…Technique is what enables us to articulate with efficiency and clarity. But first we must have something to say. Sometimes a player with crude technique has more to say than a player with impeccable technique. Whose song is more uplifting? Acquire the technique you need, and no more. That is the way of Zen Guitar.”
I have an index finger on my right hand that just slips into a roll at times, and that’s fine! Maybe I’m just lazy! 