http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=10183&item=3753766602
it’s a good flute for a session? or people have to prefer modern maker’s Flutes to this kind of instruments?
Frank
Back to the old cylindrical v conical argument. It won’t be solved here !
Andrew can probably answer this one. Mr. Migoya is on sabbatical from C&F so hopefully we can avoid a flame war.
How common is it for Rudalls and other vintage flutes to have no tuning slide?
Cheers,
Aaron
I don’t think this would be considered a vintage flute. The date is fairly late, the keys are nickel (not silver) and the bore is cylindrical rather than conical. It is probably later than 1870.
It will be rather sharp. Since it has no tuning slide playing this flute in a session would present a problem. The stamp accounts for most of its value.
It will sound good but not have the honk that we associate with earlier conical flutes that are more suitable for traditional Irish music. For about the same (projected) price one could buy a Siccama.
My advice would be to save your pennies until an earlier conical Rudall comes along or buy a modern flute, which will play at A-440 and have a stronger sound.
As I have just suggested it won’t be solved here, Aaron. Players have been arguing the toss on cylindrical versus conical since 1850. It is down to what you like.
I have a similar flute to the one mentioned which is illustrated on Mr McGee’s excellent website. An eminent local flutemaker ( who I am told not to mention by some of the brutes on this forum ) says it plays well, but he has no time for cylindrical flutes such as mine is.I was offered this one, but am not sure that I need two !
My flute, made by Nurnberger ( the leading Rudall Carte & Co worker of his day ) in 1902 plays at modern pitch so no problem with tuning.The presently offered one will be about the same date.
At this date Rudall Carte & Co were offering a choice of conical or cylindrical, but may not have been asked for a conical one, which had gone out of favour.
The conical one recently sold by Mr Levine fetched nearly four times what I was offered this one for, so a lot of saving up might be required !
Has M. been taken away ? I hadn’t noticed. Christmas has come early !
The same seller has somthing a little more suitable (and cheaper)
An easy fixer upper…
Jack
Why do you say it will be cheaper, Jack ?
( You may, of course be right, as this one seems high pitch )
I’m not intersted in the conical v. cylindrical debate. I’m just curious about there being no tuning slide on the flute in question and was wondering how common that was.
Cheers,
Aaron
Pretty common with Rudall Carte & Co flutes.The norm, I should say.
You would be wrong that Ruddle Carte flutes with no slide are the norm, Mr. Andrew.
These flutes usally have a slide, just a french slide that Rose had improved upon, but most of them were actually with a regular slide.
And many Ruddle Carte flutes had tuning slides. Mr. David Migoya was kind enough to respond to my question about that after I read it here and asked him (and he doesn’t mind having it appear hear, just so Andrew is corrected):
Are Ruddle Carte flutes normall not to have a tuning slide?
David Migoya wrote:
“No, mary. In fact, most Rudall, Carte & Co flutes were indeed with tuning slide (the simple-system varieties…I can’t speak for the system models). The French slide that John Mitchell Rose perfected (read Rockstro) which I like very much, actually begins to appear at the 7000-series of flutes. I own a Rudall/Carte flute #6208 which is one of the earliest of that time and it was actually a Patent Head. All the others in the catalogue for now are with the regular tuning slide. The appearance of the french slide on the simple system flutes seems to coincide with the advent of the 8key cylindrical model.”
That seems to settle that!
Here is some additional information from David M regarding the no-slide Rudalls. Sorry for the misspellings.
David Migoya wrote:
Mary, on second look into the catalogue, the first Rudall/Carte flutes show up at about the 6600 series. My own 6208, I should have said, is a Rudall/Rose/Carte& Co .flute. My mistake.
Still, it is about 400 flutes before the “first” french-slide simple system flute shows up (6600 to 7000) in the Rudall, Carte & Co name and then regular slides until the 7100 series and by the 7200 series they french slides are in full tilt.
Seeing as the Rudall Carte name runs from 6600 through 7403 (my own), it seems more are with regular slide than with the french slide. Not many, but the majority for sure.
The first french-slide simple system Rudalls seem to show up at #7058, which is the eBay flute. I’m not sure what the bore is, but the photos make it appear as cylindrical. But then we don’t see another Rudall/Carte flute without the conventional slide until #7154. Then the 7200 series of flutes are nearly all french slides up through the 7400 series.
Again, I speak only of the 8key models, not the system flutes that are of a different serial number system.
You note that Andrew says he has a flute he claims is close to the one on eBay and that they are likely the same tuning. That is not exactly right. At least from what he’s made public that he owns. The database shows Andrew owns Rudall/Carte #7295, which was made approximately 1902 and #7058 was made in about 1891, or about a decade before.
I back this up by the fact that R/C #7038, which is housed at the University of East Anglia, was made on 27-Jan-1890, and R/C #7106, which resides at the Metropolitan Museum of Art in New York City, was made on 10-Aug-1892. So if I’m in error, #7058 was made in 1890 rather than '91. But certainly not close to Andrew’s flute.
I also doubt the eBay flute and Andrew’s were made the same way or to the same tuning specs because of the time difference, but with Rudall I suspect anything. Andrew might be right, but I doubt it on this one.
<<<
Andrew, this is what you said in this thread.
My flute, made by Nurnberger ( the leading Rudall Carte & Co worker of his day ) in 1902 plays at modern pitch so no problem with tuning.The presently offered one will be about the same date
It’s not true, is it. The one on ebay was made in 1890-91.
I’m glad we have Mr. Migoya’s website to help decipher this!
Even if he’s not on the board anymore, he’s willing to help!
I own R&C #7007 ( a concial bore 8 key), made by Henry Wylde for the firm in 1888. It has a tuning slide.
McCullagh
is this conical bore? looks cylindrical to me, I have never seen a cylindrical bore with a slide, but I’m not an expert.
How sad that just as we were finally breathing a bit easier with the Andrew v. Migoya issues defused, it seems we have a doppleganger Migoya. Soon I expect we shall endure a doppleganger Andrew and the vituperative exchanges will continue under different names.
With all due respect to “Pratten”, I would prefer to live in ignorance rather than to be confronted with such “erudition.”
The real number of the eBay flute in question is #7258, not #7058.
And as further FYI: Robert Bigio (of the Rudall Carte books) says that the vast majority of Rudall Carte & Co’s production was in the modern style - without slide.
Honi soit qui mal y pense…
Mr. Levine, you are wrong. I live in Michigan and Mr. Migoya lives in Denver.
Now, I’ve been told you and Rosemary Lane are in fact the same person. Is that true, Mr. Levine/Ms. Lane??
And Mr. Bigio would be right, according to Mr. Migoya.
David wrote me this morning to note that most of Rudall Carte’s production were likely modern flutes with no slide.
David said that he was speaking emphatically about the 8key simple system flutes under the stamp of Rudall & Carte. Not about the modern ones and I think if you read my post of what he said, it’s clear on that point.
So Mr. Levine it seems that you’d have been taking your notes out of context. Read the post from me of David’s email again and you will see what he’s saying. That most Rudall Carte 8-key flutes are likely to be with a regular tuning slide and the French slides (no slide) are likely only on the cylindrical flutes of the 8-key format that they made.
I don’t appreciate anyone thinking that I have anything to do with David Migoya. I don’t. I don’t appreciate his politics or his tone most of the time, but I do appreciate his knowledge. Same with Andrew and with you, Mr. Levine.
Why can’t everyone just be civil here??? My god!! Put your penises back in your pants boys. All this macho crap is sickening.
Ms. Pratten deserves an apology. I will see to it that David Levine apologizes. And that he keeps his penis in his pants.
Where it belongs.
Leave it to me.
I’m sorry.
So it went for £620 - someone made a nice profit - search the web with the serial number and see the original auction price!!!
I saw the auction estimate-- about £200. But that doesn’t tell us what it attained at auction. Then there’s the 15% to consider on top of the final price.