why no airs????

Trad Irish Music
21

Bet you feel better now - geting that lot off you chest!!

I would agree with some of your sentiments, and especially
the idea of it being some sort of exclusive club.

However, I would add one comment: I, and I speak with honesty
and humility, (well a little humility any-ways!!) - I have not heard
a slow air being really well played by too many non Celts.

Yes - there are musically fine reproductions of many airs by
many fine non Celt musicians but somehow they lack something,
perhaps the intensity of feeling.

I did a course in African drumming some time ago, and boy
was it fun!!! I learned a great deal about rhythm. After six
months I began to see just how blind and ignorant I was
about the complexity and beauty of African rhythm. If I was
6 years studying - I would not be getting even close to hearing,
let alone being able to play these amazing patterns. I began
to believe it was in the blood, and I did not have it. At least
I got as far as being able to appreciate something which before
I would have considered nothing much more than noise.

Oh! By the way, “Danny Boy” is not Danny Boy, it is the
Derry Air and is a really old air that has been really badly
basterdised down the years! Its hard to listen to it without
hearing the contamination -but it still is one of the most
beautiful and haunting Irish airs.

22

Heheh! Get thee to IRTRAD-L! :laughing:

Steve

23

I forgot you were close to Jackie. I’d love to hear him sing!

I hope you don’t think I was denying there’s specific knowledge involved or that you think my rant was sour grapes because I’m not Irish (I’m half actually :wink: ). The most important point I wanted to make in my post was the one about listening - to get the music under your skin, to get its spirit, not just the notes or even to learn how to ornament. I’m trying to define what can’t be defined. I get worried when I hear that, since slow airs derive from sean nos singing therefore you should know the words, otherwise you can’t phrase the tune, and you can only do that if you speak Gaelic because it’s all lost in translation…well, you’re going to exclude an awful lot of wonderful musicians from playing them. By this measure, Jackie Daly needs more than just to know what his airs are about, and maybe he does know more, but even if he doesn’t he’s still more than good enough at it for me. Anyway, who made up the “rule” that we have to phrase a song air on an instrument exactly as if the words were being sung? I’ve heard a hundred different versions of “Summertime” played on the harmonica, many of them incredibly soulful and inventive, but you wouldn’t want to even begin to try to fit the words to most of them.

Let those who want to explore slow air playing get on with it, say I, whatever their come-froms. Let’s not get like that little cohort of crusty old “defenders of the muse” that reside on that other list I keep mentioning, the one beginning with “I.”. Leave it up to them and the music would die when they did. Right - I’m off to practise “The Banks of Sullane” now! :slight_smile:

Steve

24

Hmm. I wonder how many people that had never heard his version of the Glen Cottage before would recognise it as being not a slow air? Incidentally, some of Carolan’s tunes may well have had words sung to them at one time.

When the S*ssion members (I think it was them) were asked what their favourite slow air was, a lot said “Raglan Road.” Not that I think for one second that that lot have a monopoly of understanding in these matters, but it just goes to show…

:wink: Steve

25

Absolutely spot-on, mate. There’s scarcely any more that needs saying. The devil take the begrudgers! :slight_smile:

Steve

26

True, like those you quoted. But they’re “Planxtys”, not ‘slow airs’.

From my perspective, it’s a matter of definition. A ‘slow air’ is a specific tune type, as I’ve said. It’s not a tune played slowly or ‘wiv feewing’ as Bruce Lee would say.

It probably sounds pedantic, but there’s a huge difference between a ‘slow air’ and a ‘tune played slowly’.

“Summertime” ain’t a “slow air” any more than it’s a jig or a reel or a polka. “My Old Man’s a Dustman” played slowly isn’t a “slow air” either, nor is “99 Red Balloons”. There’s a pattern forming here, no?

We all know that if a newbie pops up on the board and says something like “Does anyone have the sheet music for the wonderful song called The Kesh jig please?” within moments someone else will be tactfully (or otherwise) pointing out the large and significant difference between a ‘song’ and a ‘tune’.

To play the melody of a ballad slowly and call it a ‘slow air’ is as incorrect as playing a jig slowly and calling that a slow air.

I don’t see how folks are perfectly willing to accept terms like jig, reel, hornpipe, mazurka, polka, waltz, slip-jig, slide, march (for example) as defining and categorising a tune, but then won’t accept that “slow air” likewise is a specific form.

I hesitate to mention Comhaltas, but since they’re generally accepted as guardians of the tradition (at least by themselves) their idea of what does and does not constitute a slow air is probably a good one, as previous posts have alluded to. You won’t be winning an All-Ireland in the slow-air category by playing “Donald Where’s yer Troosers?” or “Summertime”, no matter how slowly or emotionally you play it :slight_smile:

27

Hey Gary, I didn’t say that Summertime was a slow air - I just gave it as an example of how a song tune can be effectively interpreted instrumentally without being enslaved by the words. As for Comhaltas they ain’t exactly popular with everyone involved in ITM, especially when it comes to judging competitions… :wink:

Steve

28

That’s why I hesitated to mention them! :smiley:

And yes, a song’s melody can effectively be interpreted instrumentally without being enslaved by the words. No doubt about it. But that’s not the original question, the original question relates specifically to ‘slow airs’, not to ‘melodies played slowly’.

Here’s something I’ve noticed about slow airs (real ones) that I’ve heard played instrumentally, and why I prefer listening to them sung rather than played: A great example, Frankie Gavin playing “Sliabh na mBan” on flute, on his album “Fierce Traditional”. His tone is Frankly Incredible (pun intended). Trouble is, he’s not content with one ‘verse’. By halfway through the 4 minutes and 47 seconds of that track, my initial wonder at his tone and his command of the flute is lost and I’m either fast-forwarding or skipping to the next track. Which is not something I’d be doing if this were a vocal piece, because the 7 verses are different (even though the air or melody might not be).

29

hehe! There’s a reason I don’t post there :wink:

30

Who’s arguing, not me!!!

As a matter of interest “Raglan Road”
is a poem my Cavanagh to a traditional
song called, " ‘Fainne Gael an Lae’
(The Dawning of the Day) which I
and countless others learned in school.
It was often used as a marching tune.
But also was sung, with much rubato,
as an air. There are several tunes
by that same name.

The first verse went:

Maidin moch do ghabhas amach,
Ar bruach Locha Léin;
An Samhradh teacht’s an chraobh len’ais,
Is ionrach te ón ngréin.

One morning early I went out
On the shore of Lough Leinn
The leafy trees of summertime,
And the warm rays of the sun.

AFAIK the term “planxty” refers specifically
to O’Carolan’s music, and specifically to a
tune which was a dedication to an individual,
usually a benefactor. Hence the term “planxty”
has a name as a suffix. The planxty itself could
be in dance time or a slower air.

31

By all means get on with it but please try to approach it from an informed point of view. I remember some years ago someone posted a versio nof Sliabh gael gCua na feile on the whistleboard. The reactions to it were full of praise for the ‘souldful’ quality. I have noodled with the air myself and am fairly familiar wit hthe song as sung by Labhras O Cahla. And all I could hear was someone bending notes up and down haphazardly, stretching passing notes, breaking phrases and generally not having a clue what the tune was about.

I quoted the follwing more than once on these forums:


And wasn’t it Willie Clancy who thought Seamus Ennis had the headstart (compared to himself) as a player of airs because of his understanding of the language and the songs.

The opinions of these men should count for something or are they too crusty old bolloxes who would have let the music die if they would have had their way?

32

Aye and there’s the thing, slow airs are sung in phrases, and should be played in phrases, not by the bar. The phrasing and the metre as well as the ‘feel’ of the air is inextricably linked to the words.

Again it comes back to ‘what is a slow air’. What’s it’s not is just ‘a melody played slowly wiv feewing.’

33

Peter, you have pretty much underscored what I said earlier, but said it better. But another valid point has been made here which, though it troubles me, has some validity too. That is the point that, if neither the audience nor the player knows the difference, what matter that they are totally trashing the tune? Certainly, what is being played can no longer be considered “the real thing”, but since some non-Irish players have made it known here that they are not aiming for authenticity, and their audience wouldn’t know the proper version of the tune if it fell on them, what difference does it make?

Notice I asked what difference does it make. I did not ask what harm can it do. The harm is that audiences never get the opportunity to hear the real thing. But if the real thing is in a language the audience doesn’t understand, does it really matter? Can we say that such audiences are going to scream for blood if they don’t get the genuine article? Probably not.

In this case, I think it is important that the musician recognizes that what they are playing is not kosher, and that they must choose their audiences carefully, so that they don’t find themselves someday spouting garbage at a knowledgable audience.

djm

34

What difference does it make? None I spose. A muso is perfectly at liberty to play anything he or she wishes, privately or publicly. One can play a reel as a hornpipe, or a hornpipe as a reel. One can even (one can, I can’t) play a slow and evocative rendition of “Shaddup Your Face,” but calling it an Irish Traditional slow air is just plain wrong.

I think the ‘harm’ goes a lot deeper than audiences never getting the opportunity to hear the real thing… unless by never you mean never again, because the tradition dies completely as a result of uneducated audiences becoming accustomed to and demanding ‘stuff’ from musicians who’ve abandoned authenticity on the altar of personal expression and preferrence.

There are no doubt many people who think Michael Flatley’s Celtic Tiger is the true heart, soul, and tradition of Ireland. What difference does it make if they do, if that’s what they want to see and hear and believe?

Isn’t nurturing a tradition the responsibility of those who want to be part of it? Thus we come back to the “what is traditional?” debate, and the “crusty old bolloxes.”

35

Okay, stupid question time. Let me state outright that I know zip about the sean-nos singing tradition.

But for all the fields of traditional song I do know something about, the words of a song are extremely slippery things; usually every old singer has a version which is at least slightly different, if not wildly different. Not to mention the connection between song and tune is pretty loose anyway, with many songs having more than one tune and many tunes having more than one song.

Yet every time someone talks about playing slow airs – the above quote is a great example – they talk as if there was one exact correct version of the song, and any deviation is a sign the musician doesn’t know what he’s doing.

Is sean-nos really that rigid? Or are people just exagerating for the sake of getting the point across that you’re supposed to play it as you would sing it?

36

Now Peter and djm. It’s been an awful long time since that golden age :wink: in which all ITM was played solo by Irishmen who learned it all by ear from their fathers and grandfathers before them. It’s a long time since the music of Palestrina or JS Bach was performed in the way they wrote it. The music has burgeoned beyond the bounds of a few miserable little draughty bars and kitchens because lots of new people with love and enthusiasm have taken ahold of it and made it reach out to a much wider audience - and, far from harming its purity, has provided a new audience for the good players who want to preserve that old purity, and all power to their elbows. I have treasured pure drop recordings that I almost certainly would never have investigated had it not been for Planxty and the Bothies lighting my fuse. As for audiences, I believe they generally go to concerts knowing more or less what to expect and that, generally, they will react to the intrinsic musicality of what’s going on and not “sit there without a yardstick with which to assess the musical validity of an instrumental rendering of a song air etc. etc.” If they’re fully-engaged they will be unconsciously assessing the musical validity full stop. Are you trying to tell me that I could be sitting in an audience, enjoying a performance of a “slow air” that’s being played with real feeling, blissfully unaware that the tune is actually being trashed? Sez who it’s being trashed pray tell!

I know quite a few slow airs and I try to play a few. It’s much harder than playing reels. I’m a non-Gaelic-speaking non-Irishman and I play a non-traditional instrument. Tell me I shouldn’t play slow airs. I’m with Colomon.

Steve

37

I don’t see a statement about ‘the one exact version’ in the quote. And I think I know Terry Moylan well enough to say he wasn’t looking for that either. What he does say is that an air played should still accomodate the words as a singer would sing them, in whatever way that singer chooses and there’s wriggle room there, plenty of it. But there’s that one basic requirement: that the melody as played should accomodate a given set of words words.

38

for those, like me, who didn’t know:

http://www.folkmusic.net/htmfiles/inart378.htm

_…In the belief that the term ‘sean-nos’ referred to a readily definable style, it has been reduced convincingly by academics and afficionados to a series of characteristics which have been well documented, most notably by Sean O Riada in 1962 and Seoirse Bodley in 1972. The following is an amalgam:
\

  1. A bare voice (not ‘sweet’, with a certain ‘natural fierceness’).
    \
  2. No vibrato.
    \
  3. No dynamic. (loud/soft)
    \
  4. Emotion is expressed through the use of vocal ornamentation, which varies from singer to singer.
    \
  5. Free, non-metronomic rhythm used by the singer.
    \
  6. The meaning of the words dictates singing from the heart, with ‘soul’. (Without dynamic - see above).
    \
  7. Often there is an emphasis on the consonants l, m, n, r to facilitate the free rhythmic pulse and to create a drone effect.
    \
  8. Occasional nasalisation.
    \
  9. Music takes precedent over the lyric.
    \
  10. Often extra meaningless syllables are introduced, e.g., “Thug (a) me”.
    \
  11. The use of the glottal stop/dramatic pause.
    \
  12. It’s unaccompanied.
    \
  13. The melody varies from one verse to the next, and from one performance to the next. This is often referred to as the ‘variation principle’.
    \
  14. And last but not least, the singing is in the Irish language._
39

Well, as one not steeped in “the tradition” from birth maybe I can listen to a tune with a more detached view (not more informed I hasten to add!) and judge the performance on its purely-musical merits better than someone who knows the words and has an emotional investment in the tune. And I can soon tell if someone is adding inappropriate bends or noodlings without necessarily knowing the words - that comes under musicality generally. But why are you trying to set Irish slow airs apart from any other music in terms of what can validly be done to them? Since time immemorial people have been setting words to tunes, setting tunes to words, divorcing words from tunes to produce instrumentals, jazzing up tunes, speeding them up, slowing them down - it’s what happens in music of any genre. Liszt took many a piece of Schubert, Beethoven and Mendelssohn and made stunning piano transcriptions of them. Words have been put to tunes by Borodin, Tchaikovsky (John o’ Dreams for one!) and Mendelssohn to make popular songs. I’ve already mentioned “Summertime.” It’s all grist to the mill and we’re all free to accept or reject. There seems to be a hidden fear in some circles that if we tamper with ITM its pristine purity will be lost forever. While there are still people living and breathing who want to play the music “purely,” then it’ll always be there.

Steve

40

But how do you know what set of words to use? Is it just that the listener can imagine singing the words he happens to know to the tune as it is played?

Do you ever get a case where one listener complains a playing doesn’t match the song, and another says, “No, that’s just the way old man O’Neill sings it”?