Why is it that....

[Infernaltootler]

Someone played a well known reel the other day at a session and he timing was so off that although it was Cooleys and everyone knew it very few even attempted to play along.

Afterwards I suggested he look into how he played the b part (just as a start, you’ll understand) 'cos he’s playing it wrong even though he was playing from sheet music and he said, “There’s no right and wrong in folk music,” to which I replied, “There is if no one else can play along with you,”

People will cling to sheet music. At the Irish Music lessons I go to it is a nightmare as the teacher tries to teach a tune by ear and most of the class try and following using a book. The notes aren’t the same and they aren’t truly listening to how the tune goes and it’s a real struggle. They don’t believe they can learn by ear.

I think the first lesson should have been, “Here, give me those books and open your ears,”

[Blaydo]

@MarkP

@Blaydo

I can’t think of anything that annoys them more than people joining in on tunes they don’t even know.

…although joining in (quietly) is also one of the ways you’re most likely to learn a session tune in the aural tradition. I keep a ‘quiet’ whistle with me at a session, as well as the loud one and the flute, for just that purpose.

Of course this is perfectly acceptable also, I do this too on tunes that I don’t know well enough to belt them out loudly. Usually it’s also to see what way they are playing that particular tune. If you’re good enough you can also harmonize quite nicely with a tune you never heard before, I’m not but I know people who can.

[caedmon]

As a drummer, I am used to not seeing sheet music. I am comfortable with learning by ear. But, now that I am trying to learn instruments like the harmonica, whistle, bass guitar and rebec, I am having to learn this thing called ‘notes’, you know, A’s, B’s and G’s. While I understand rhythm and tempo quite well, having at least a hint sheet is helpful until I get to ‘by ear’ with these other instruments.

[Azalin]

@Infernaltootler

Afterwards I suggested he look into how he played the b part (just as a start, you’ll understand) 'cos he’s playing it wrong even though he was playing from sheet music and he said, “There’s no right and wrong in folk music,” to which I replied, “There is if no one else can play along with you,”

Wow, I admire you. What the guy said would have been so insulting to me, as someone who takes this stuff very seriously, I wouldn’t have been able to answer nicely. I would have insulted him or simply ignored him from that point.

Where does this belief that you can do anytyhing in folk music come from? I heard this mainly from classical musicians, but others too.

[straycat82]

@Azalin

Where does this belief that you can do anytyhing in folk music come from? I heard this mainly from classical musicians, but others too.

Sounds like a lame rationalization to me. If they claim that as their motto then they won’t ever have to actually try to get it right and can proceed doing whatever it is they feel like doing.

[Blaydo]

@caedmon

I am having to learn this thing called ‘notes’, you know, A’s, B’s and G’s. While I understand rhythm and tempo quite well, having at least a hint sheet is helpful until I get to ‘by ear’ with these other instruments.

This isn’t an anti sheet music discussion, I learn tunes mainly by ear but assisted by sheet music also. I check out different versions of sheet music of a tune so I can learn some variations. We’re talking about people having their repertoire in written notation rather than in memory. Nothing wrong with having sheet music to help you learn a tune but it should be put away as soon as you’ve memorized it.

[Nanohedron]

What Blaydo said.

@straycat82

@mutepointe

Once a sheet music user, always a sheet music user.

If that is your mindset then it may be true for you but I’ve witnessed otherwise (difficult as it may have been for the individual). Though sheet music may be a rigid crutch for many who stumble into the tradition from elsewhere, remembering the tunes, listening to the music, and learning by ear are skills to be learned if you have any real respect for the traditional music or if you ever intend to do it any justice.

@ mutepointe: There are two ways to interpret that. If what you mean is that the sheetmusic user is a lost cause, I firmly believe otherwise. Those who are habituated to sheetmusic are not irrevocably ruined for ear-learning. It is a matter of re-application (see my assertion about ear-learning in the 3rd paragraph below), and practice. There is a weekly group here that meets for the express purpose of learning by ear; almost all of them have tended to use or depend on sheetmusic to some degree. At these meetings they are to use no sheet music, and no tune names are given lest they seek the dots out, and it’s working pretty well. The only crutch, if you want to call it that, is one’s recording device. That’s considered legit for the purpose. Of course, everyone has a different learning curve, and there are in some cases self-fulfilling prophesies to dismantle, but I don’t think it’s impossible at all to wean oneself from dependence on the dots.

The only end of this gathering is ear memory. Occasionally they need to be reminded that it’s NOT about getting more tunes. Tunes are nice, but they are merely a vehicle to the greater goal. People are being taught to teach themselves, and perferably sooner than later, they will leave and move on well-armed in ear memory, and continue the process on their own.

@ straycat82: I fully agree. I just want to point something out that people seem to forget: we are not born with sheet music; ear learning is our default condition from birth. Witness any musically untrained child who can sing from memory a countless number of songs without a care, or any untrained (or trained, for that matter!) adult who can do the same thing. In learning music, ear memory is the first and natural condition. There is no other. Really, it’s reading that is the learned method, and that only additionally. Ear memory can be re-applied (I would not say “learned” or even “re-learned”, exactly, as I’m not convinced it’s ever truly lost).

There is one person who is so invested in her belief that she is rudderless without the dots, that she sabotages herself continually. When she’s faced with the question, “How many songs do you know and can sing or hum that you never learned by sheet music?”, of course the answer is “lots”, and it defuses her self-enabling momentarily. But soon she goes back to saying, “Yeah, but…”. She does a lot of that. I privately call her “Yabbut”. We’re chippin’ away at the monolith, though.

Sometimes I get the distinct sense that that sort of self-defeating thinking is really more a matter of, “I worked HARD to be able to read this well, dammit. Why should I give it up, then?” No one said one has to give it up, that it’s an either-or sum. There’s nothing wrong with the dots, but you can’t deny that ear learning coupled with the skill to read is an undeniable advantage. In any case, in ear-learning, how could one possibly lose the ability to read??? It doesn’t make sense. But dealing with fear like that is not an easy thing.

@pancelticpiper

The human brain is much better at this sort of information storage and retrieval than sheet music…

And almost infinitely more flexible, too. I believe a person is far more likely to embark on attempting variations when relying on the brain and ears.

[mutepointe]

There should be ITM licenses, ITM police, ITM courts, ITM prisons, & maybe in America, ITM firing squads. That’ll keep things right.

[Nanohedron]

@mutepointe

There should be ITM licenses, ITM police, ITM courts, ITM prisons, & maybe in America, ITM firing squads. That’ll keep things right.

That was straight out of left field. I wonder what prompted you to such a draconian state of mind, unless it was Straycat’s comment above.

There’s a difference between simply playing tunes for the joy of it, and playing tunes for the joy of it as an exponent of a tradition. Neither is better than the other. Lord knows there are enough self-styled exponents who are anything but joyful about it. But, I do agree with Straycat in that if you consider yourself an exponent of a tradition, doing it justice - as best as you know how - goes with the territory sooner or later. Either way, enjoy. Please.

[mutepointe]

There seems to be such strong opinions by some folks about the right way and a wrong way to learn and play ITM that I just thought extreme measures might be called for. (I’m teasing of course.)

[Nanohedron]

@mutepointe

There seems to be such strong opinions by some folks about the right way and a wrong way to learn and play ITM that I just thought extreme measures might be called for. (I’m teasing of course.)

Nay, speak not of right or wrong, but better.

[Yuri]

Azalin, classical musicians are not normally the interpreters of the music. They are just the, erm, technicians is perhaps the nearest term. It’s the conductor that is. (OK, there are the chamber groups with no conductor, but most classical musicians play in orchestras.) That explains why they are often not so hot in a setting where they are expected to do more than play one note after the other.
On the other hand, imagine a grand orchestra consisting of a whole bunch of virtuosos. Each going his/her own way. That would be a disaster, frankly.
And yes, classical musos tend to stick to the classical repertoire.

[walrii]

Sometimes we paint others with too broad a brush based on our experience with one or two people. I live miles from anything resembling an Irish session and have taught myself what little I know with help from C&F and related sites plus books and CDs. I knew I had some real limitations, especially with rhythm and I knew I needed more discipline in my practice. I held off getting lessons because all our local teachers are band/classically oriented. I was sure they wouldn’t understand ITM and would probably corruspt me in some way. I hit a wall about a year ago and got frustrated enough to try some lessons with a local store that teaches mostly kids and band students.

To my surprise, my instructor was more than willing to use Irish music for exercises and lessons. He asked me to bring him some CDs so he could listen to the tunes done by traditional musicians. He almost instantly diagnosed my problem as not being able to count and play at the same time. Small wonder, since my metronone and I never did hit it off.

Today, we started on a tune where the transcription showed the classical turn notation to suggest where rolls might go. My instructor explained turns to me and demonstrated a few then asked me to play it. I played a roll, of course, and he gave me a funny look. I explained the difference, as I understood it, between rolls and turns (MTGuru, you are a saint). He listened to a few rolls on a CD, practiced a bit and then we played the tune with rolls. He is bringing discipline to my practice (I now have homework and a goal for next week rather than just toodling) and my rhythm is improving by the week. I’m even making friends with my metronome!

I’m learning the basics from a teacher who enjoys music and teaches it well. That gets me on the next leg of the journey and that’s a good thing. Now, I have to figure out how to break the news to him that tongueing isn’t the only way to make the music crisper!

[Azalin]

@Yuri

Azalin, classical musicians are not normally the interpreters of the music. They are just the, erm, technicians is perhaps the nearest term. It’s the conductor that is. (OK, there are the chamber groups with no conductor, but most classical musicians play in orchestras.) That explains why they are often not so hot in a setting where they are expected to do more than play one note after the other.
On the other hand, imagine a grand orchestra consisting of a whole bunch of virtuosos. Each going his/her own way. That would be a disaster, frankly.
And yes, classical musos tend to stick to the classical repertoire.

So you’re telling me that a good conductor would be able to conduct an orchestra to play genuine trad music? Maybe with a magic stick

[Azalin]

@mutepointe

There should be ITM licenses, ITM police, ITM courts, ITM prisons, & maybe in America, ITM firing squads. That’ll keep things right.

Ah, good example here. If you were learning classical music, and people would make you practice things for hours because they tell you you got it wrong. Would you tell them that we’d need classes music licences, police, firing squads, etc?

If yes, well, fair enough, at least you’re against any type of rule in any kind of music. If no, then, why?

[Yuri]

No, no, no. A good conductor will never attempt trad. music. It simply isn’t what he’s doing. For that matter what the musicians are doing. Would a heavy metal band attempt opera? Or an opera singer a heavy headbanging? They simply are good at what they do, but not good at what they don’t do. I’m sure a good Irish whistler wouldn’t really be happy to play a Telemann flute sonata. That’s not what a whistle is for, neither is it what a whistler is for.

[Jerry_Freeman]

@Yuri

No, no, no. A good conductor will never attempt trad. music. It simply isn’t what he’s doing. For that matter what the musicians are doing. Would a heavy metal band attempt opera? Or an opera singer a heavy headbanging? They simply are good at what they do, but not good at what they don’t do. I’m sure a good Irish whistler wouldn’t really be happy to play a Telemann flute sonata. That’s not what a whistle is for, neither is it what a whistler is for.

Here you go:

http://www.box.net/shared/zi12xga6mq
https://forums.chiffandfipple.com/t/whistle-meets-telemann/58417/1

Best wishes,
Jerry

[MTGuru]

Jerry, he did say a good Irish whistler.

[hoopy_mike]

@mutepointe

What I do know is church music. We use sheet music. We don’t play songs often enough to have them memorized. And even the songs we play at every Mass, well, we still use the sheet music. Once a sheet music user, always a sheet music user.

I can associate with that, but for me the sheet music is more like a comfort blanket than a true essential. Do you find yourself looking at the sheet music all of the time? Maybe try the occasional glance away from the dots and see what happens.

Oh, and for those who like their news reports on the hoopy side:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/8047155.stm

[Mitch]

Hmmm at the risk of duplicating a ton of already stated stuff:

“Many years ago in Germany when I was just a lad” (quote from a Frank Zappa song) …

I would play in numerous bands being a nascient professional musician. I often attended auditions for the next piano-player, Guitarist, Bassist, Drummer, Flautist, Saxophonist, yadda yadda, that wanted access to our copious gig-flow … read: cornu-copious - A muso needs to pay his rent .. or, at least, pacify the remunitary penance exacted by his current girlfriend

What I noticed was this:

The dot-guy would always bring a music stand - if we had no dots to stick on it, he would walk. If he brang his own dots, we would all have to addapt to the arrangement penned by the anonomous compiler of those dots (professional arrangAAArrrr) .. we didn’t like that - we could AAAAArrrrr better than any one .. true?

The dot guys were very useful - expendable plug-in-plug-out people that we could replace with a sequencer at any time so long as the drummer could pace with a “clik trak” in the drum-fill - WOO HOO - no need for extra programin!!

In the 2 ton truck, the plug-in guys would ride the tour to the next gig in the back with the gear - if they survived the trip without too many side FX from exhaust fume inhalation, they could stand up and play the gig with us - otherwise we could pull one from the crowd The savy ones kept low in the pan and ignored our driverly attempts to freak them out (freeeaquent uneccesary beaking and bizar swerve maneouvers .. at one time me and the guitar guy did a 200 mile trip on a nautical theme … and measured the depth of sea-sick flowing over the back-pan when we got to the motel room!

For learning the songs we had the cassette/CD compilations and a paid-for rehearsal room. If they could cut it they were in.

On stage, if we threw an impromtu solo - it was disaster of one of us had to cover and keep the crowd hot.

SO what you gotta ask yourself is this:

1. If you play for yourself - coool play what and how you want.
2. If you play to be heard: Coool - play something someone wants to hear.
3. If you play dots ..does it serve 1 or 2? If not - there is a 2-ton pantek waiting to make you seasick for a joke .. and a 10$ bet

Dots are for learning and practice - on a stage there is nothing to hide behind - leave the music stand at home.

(edited to say: when I was running 4 bands to fill the calendar, I had a bunch of primitave computer monitors strung around the stage with snippets of music, chord charts and hints about each song so’s each line-up could all do the gig on minimum prep. They were all strung off of a micro computer I had programmed using Basic computer language - with all the song data pre-arranged for 100 songs and a nifty set-selection routine to get them in order .. included all the midi crap to set the keys settings FX and front of house and a gizmo to draw lichen for the drumer. with all that in mind .. sure- use them dots … or whatever it takes - but don’t get caught!)

(edited again to say .. yah yah yah - all you “classical” orchestra dudes - you got such a high workload to do a bungload of stuff you either can do in your sleep or just bland on thru the dots while the conductor performs for you … at least you get to play some real music at the sesh )

(I am not synical - I bin there, got bored and bin somewhere else. Just watched a Gene Kelly movie - man that guy could dance! Go watch the Groucho bros - all those players and singers hadda do all that in one take! Human excelence is in your own soul - it is nothing new, but man .. if the world was without it??? You are the salt of the earth. Kapische???)