I have been playing whistles for a few years now. I started on high whistles with the intention of moving to a low whistle. I do have a Dixon low D but I struggle with it as I have quite small hands and slender fingers. I have also been thinking lately that I would like to have a go at the Irish flute. The options for tonal variances appeal to me and also I have heard (perhaps in error??) that a D flute is actually easier for small-handed people than a low D whistle. And it’s a new challenge!
My main question is whether I am going to struggle as much with the fingering as I do the low whistle? My main problems seem to be finding a comfortable position for my thumbs and also sealing the bottom three holes ( I can do it, but with my slender fingers there isn’t much margin for error ).
I do understand that time needed to develop a good embouchure - but I think (again, possibly incorrectly) that may be easier to overcome with practice than if my hands are just too small to ever play it comfortably!
I was thinking of buying one of the Dixon polymer D flutes to have a go - would that be a good choice to try out the flute? I think if I take to it I would quickly ‘trade up’ to a better practice flute, but I don’t want to spend a lot of money if this isn’t going to work.
Flute is a very different animal due to the need for an embouchure, but I think it’s much more rewarding and gives you a broader range of nuances in sound. You can get an idea of fingers by holding your low whistle as if it were a flute - I think you’ll find that the “stretch” is much more manageable when playing “transversly”. There is another factor to consider, though - most decent flutes are conical (versus cylindrical for most low whistles), and this will make the tone holes a lot more manageable as well. Additionally, some makers (Casey Burns specifically comes to mind) have “ergonomic” or “small hand” flutes in their lineups. You can get lots of advice (LOTS) about who to buy from, but any of the known makers’ flutes would be great. Just DON’T buy one of the Pakistani ones from eBay! Casey has recently upped the price of his folk flutes, but they come up from time to time here on Chiff. I currently play a high end John Gallagher keyed flute and have a Garry Somers delrin as my backup. I can highly recommend flutes from Casey Burns, John Gallagher, Dave Copley, Terry McGee, and Garry Somers. I’ve owned a couple of Dixons, both conical and cylindrical, and don’t really recommend them (but your mileage may vary, as they say).
I started off with a Dixon, and still find that the right hand stretch is difficult on that particular instrument when compared to others I have played. Casey Burns makes a great Folk Flute with an ergonomic hole placement for smaller hands that is much easier to manage. I am sure other makers can make some accommodations as well. But we are well above the cost of a Dixon. You might consider Doug Tipple as an option. Here’s a link to some comparisons of hole distances on several different flutes: http://tippleflutes.com/flute-finger-hole-comparison/ . One thought would be to buy something from him that is higher than a D flute, so that the hole spacing is easier. You might wind up keeping it even if you decide to invest in a higher end flute later.
I also have very short fingers … if I measure my ring finger from the base at the palm to the tip it is 2.75". I have owned a Tipple and now a WD Sweet Shannon with no problem. I have also tried a Somers pratten … that was pushing it for me but I could do it. Starting out my fingers would tire after an hour but the more I play the more my fingers have gotten use to the stretch.
I have pretty big hands (long fingers) and have no problem with a large-holed flute, but I find low (D) whistles challenging. (Although the Dixon low D has pretty small holes and not too big a stretch, as low D’s go.)
First, have you been using piper’s grip on your bottom hand? (Using your finger tips creates unecessary hardship.) If that’s not working for you, a conical flute would likely be easier. As mentioned, Casey Burns specializes in flutes for small hands, and it looks like the Walt Sweet ‘Shannon’ model should be quite comfortable, too. (I wouldn’t bother with the Dixon flute, either–trading up will just cost more in the long run. The Burns or ‘Shannon’ will serve you well for years.)
yes, a flute will be less of a stretch than a whistle, and as you said, it’s going to take time to build up a good embrochure and actually play with any fluidity. if it’s the low whistle you’re set on then i wouldnt give up too soon though, there are a few makers that offer low whistles with ergonomic sizing just as they do with flutes to make the stretch easier for small hands. (i think colin goldie does custom jobbies for smaller hands?) The other thing to consider is price. a nice flute from a decent maker that will last you a good few years for the learning process is going to cost you considerably more than a low whistle can be had for.
Sorry to hear you are still not getting on well with your low D. Going from a Dixon TB003 to a Dixon polymer flute is not going to make for a less troublesome solution I fear.
Dixon makes a few polymer flutes. I am not sure which one you may be considering.
The TB021D is fairly affordable. It is basically the same low D body as the one you have in your TB003 but with a flute head. I believe that head can be purchased separately from Tony Dixon directly. While that would be a least cost solution it does not solve your hand stretch/coverage issues. The holes are still the same size and in the same positions. And the resulting instrument, while improved from the earlier DIxon poly flutes without the lip plate, is still not a very decent flute. The transverse hold can help on some hands but in general if you are having a bit of difficulty with the Super Duper EZ grip on a whistle, playing it transversely may not solve the issue.
Dixon does make a 3 piece delrin flute the DX030. Delrin is another polymer - stouter stuff. This one is more expensive and more of a flute. The primary difference with the 3 piece flute is that is started life as a proper albeit inexpensive conical bore flute with proper wall thickness in the head and body sections. It’s a pretty good starter flute IMO. I keep a few of these flutes on hand to loan to beginners until they find there own flute. Here’s the good news. The holes are smaller than the whistle body. You should be able to cover the holes easier. The stretch is about as friendly as you can get too. The not so good news is that the embouchure hole is smallish too. It requires a nicely focused embouchure to get a good strong tone out of it. Even when you do have a good embouchure it will tend to be quieter than other flutes. If you think hand stretch on a TB003 is frustrating then spending the time to develop an embouchure for the DX030 would be just as frustrating if not more so. But we all have different mouths. I will add that if you can get a good reedy tone on a Dixon DX030, you will be able to play any other flute out there pretty well. The focus this flute demands is a good training aid for the lips.
Of course if you go for the DX030 with the extra DX030WHD whistle head you will also have a new low D. I think if you buy the two in combination they are designated DX031. Could be wrong. And that may be what you want anyway, judging a little from your previous posts. The DX030 flute has a very friendly hole layout - small holes with easy stretch (comparatively). Adding the whistle head absolves you from the whole difficulty of developing the embouchure journey. You get a very playable low D, although a quieter low D. And you can take your time developing the lips on the flute head. Not a bad strategy in my book.
But if it is a flute you really want then here are better flutes out there for a little more money as have been mentioned. I favor the Copley 3 piece delrin. The Gary Somers flutes are also a lot of flute for the money. But I find the Copley is a bit more user friendly for a beginner. Lots of good flutes out there to choose from.
Thanks for all the helpful advice. Feadoggie - you are correct in that I am still struggling with the Dixon. I can play it, although my fingering is still a bit hit-and-miss (literally). The pipers grip does work, but after all this time I still don’t find playing it comfortable, and I do wonder if that is down to my small hands. Searches for ‘low whistle for small hands’ often led to threads where the general advice was to try a flute, but I must admit I have been considering giving the flute a go for a while, even before posting my other question on the whistle forum.
I did consider going for the Walt Sweet Onyx, but thought why go for a Low Whistle that is based on a flute, and sounds similar to a flute - might as well try a flute. I find the thought of controlling the flavour of the sound that the flute makes possible very appealing, and I do wonder if the transverse grip will be more comfortable. It seems a natural step up from the whistle.
The Casey Burns folk flute looks good, as does the Walt Sweet Shannon. Interestingly my hand span (without stretching) is exactly 19cm - right on the borderline of what Casey recommends for the small hand flute!!
My thoughts on the Dixon were to get a cheap PVC flute, mainly to see how I get on with the embouchure before spending on a more serious student flute. From the comments on the Dixon, that may not be a good idea?
A common mistake is to start on something cheap that you probably won’t be able to play. If you invest in something more playable, like the CB Folk Flute, you are more likely to end up playing flute. If it isn’t for you, you can sell it and get most or all of your money back. Flute will be easier to finger than a low D whistle, and you would profit from a lesson or two at the beginning concerning how to properly hold it. The embouchure will probably take months of practice to come online, so you will need to be patient and not give up. Definitely worth the trouble, IMO, and it helps to address it seriously. Good luck!
Jim’s right–get something good, and if you don’t like it, you can just about recoup your investment. The Dixon (PVC) will be more challenging anyway–they’re just not very good instruments, from my experience.
A second point–cylindrical instruments have a wider spread than conical instruments, so for this to be a fruitful exercise, you’ll want a flute with a conical bore (i.e. not a PVC flute). You could do the conical-bored three-piece Dixon, but as Feadoggie points out, it’s not a flute for the ages, and it’s only slightly lower-priced than the Shannon.
One final point–the flute will take a major investment of time to learn/create the embouchure (it’s a steep learning curve), so make sure you have the necessary motivation to climb that hill. If not, your idea about the Onyx is good–smaller holes and a conical bore on a low whistle might do the trick.
My ring fingers are just under 70mm. The small-handed Burns is fine for me. My fingers are fat but the holes are small and a 10-year old lad with fairly thin fingers had no problem with it.
I bought one of the single-piece conical Dixon’s just to see if with gentle practice I could coax my fingers into adapting to a more standard flute. The reach feels huge by comparison and the holes are much bigger. I doubt I will persist with it.
Thanks for the helpful advice so far. I think I would like to try the flute but I heed your advice and will be saving up for a decent student flute rather than the cheaper Dixon flutes. I think the consideration of my small hands would make the Dixon as equally frustrating as my Dixon low whistle.
I would like some follow-up advice on suggestions for the best practice flute to go for. I don’t really have an opportunity to try these, so whichever I go for I will be buying blind. My thoughts so far:
I like the idea of a wooden flute and the Casey Folk Flute (probably blackwood) in the small-hand configuration is very appealing. However I do wonder if, given I would have a lot to learn with just the technique etc., going for a delrin flute would be better as I don’t have to worry about ‘playing in’ and regular oiling. Is this something I should be concerned about?
If I did go for delrin - which one?
The Sweetheart Shannon appeals as it caters for small hands and is a good price. The website appears to have been down for a few days though so am not sure if there are any issues here?
The Copley 3-piece delrin looks nice, but will I struggle with the finger hole size and spacing? The website mentions a small-handed version but I don’t know how this would compare to the Shannon or Casey option. It is also just as expensive as the Folk flute (and part of me objects to paying that much for plastic!!)
VDM Flutes delrin student flute: A bit closer to home but I don’t know much about it, and again, wonder about the hole sizes and spaces.
The Dixon delrin - would be the cheapest but from what I have heard it doesn’t sound appealing compared to the other options. I could see myself wanting to upgrade quickly.
Delrin certainly is easier from a maintenance perspective, but the upkeep on a wooden flute (_e.g.,_the Folk Flute) isn’t onerous. I’m familiar with both the Walt Sweet’s (not Sweetheart) Shannon and Dave Copley’s instruments and would comfortably recommend either for a beginning player as instruments to start on and continue well into the future.
Walt Sweet’s site is up and running now and indicates that he’s ready to fill orders. If you have any questions about the Copley, just give Dave a call/email and talk it through with him. A very nice guy to do business with. Both the Shannon and the basic Copley are pretty inexpensive for what you get and I’d suggest that they will give you far more satisfaction (and a better introduction to flutes) than you might find at a lower cost.
And, if you find you are not cut out for flute playing, they both would have a good resale value.
All that being said, both of these makers are in the U.S. and I know nothing about whether there would be any issues of shipping to the UK. Perhaps others can touch on that aspect.
I would put Copley flutes on the larger end of the spectrum. A flute made with small hands in mind might be your best bet.
Wood is easy to care for–I wouldn’t worry about it. I’ve lived in hot, cold, humid, and dry environments with the flute I’ve had for the last decade, and it’s still in great shape with no special care. (I keep it in a case, swab it out when I’m done playing, and oil it twice a year.) Breaking in a new flute is easy: just play a bit longer each day for the first week or so. (You’ll be breaking yourself in at the same time, so it will be a natural progression!) Follow the maker’s recommended oiling schedule, and you’re all set.
Remember that the Dixon 3 piece delrin DX030 is a totally different beast from the less expensive models. I would have no trouble calling it a decent student flute. I doubt you would be done with it very quickly. It will take you quite some time to get a good embouchure in any case. The delrin Dixon is worth the effort in my mind. You’ll develop a good embouchure on one. If my earlier comments abouth the Dixon delrin led you to believe it is not a good student flute then I may have not described things well. As a low whistle it may not be the best whistle. But the flute is decent and well worth the price IMO. It is a good flute to learn on. Beyond that they make a good, rugged second flute. They are a good travel flute too. Since they are lightweight and have a short foot it makes for a a very compact package. They are readily available where you are as well.
I’ve owned three Copley flutes. One is silver and blackwood. Another is a delrin version of the balckwood model complete with silver slide and rings. It is very much as nice a flute as my blackwood model - plays and sounds the same. The same care was put into making the delrin flute as was put into the blackwood flute. That’s how Dave works.
More pertinant to your selection, I’ve also owned a three piece delrin Copley with the closer spacing for the RH2 and R3 holes meant for players with small hands. Now that flute has the more modern embouchure as well. It is as easy an embouchure cut as you will find IMO. I had concerns about the smaller finger holes but those were largley unfounded once I played the flute for a while. The venting was a little different. I couldn’t cheat as much. But the flute was a very good, great sounding flute. It became my favorite flute quickly - light, easy to pack and carry much like the Dixon 3 piece. The embouchure was very easy (but I’ve been playing flute for more than forty years so YMMV). It is a very good flute. And unlike wood, it can go anywhere in any conditions with no concerns. It will survive most any environmental conditions.
Comparing the holes and stretch of the small hands Copley to the Dixon three piece, the Dixon is easier to handle. The Dixon holes are smaller and easier to cover. That’s why I recommend the Dixon for younger players as a starter flute. But the difference is not huge. Still it is enough of a difference that it might help some people. The big difference is that the Copley is better sounding, better playing flute overall. The Copley does not represent a compromise in volume or dynamics. It is a proper flute in all regards.
I am a short man. I have small hands. I am older and have arthritis too. I can play all but the biggest Pratten flutes with little issue. And sure I have had many years to get comfortable with my grip but my point is that you should not be so overly concerned with your hand size that you compromise on your instrument. It takes practice and effort to learn to play the flute. Lots of it in fact. I know you have had issues with piper’s grip on the low D. It takes time and patience. There is a flat fingered grip analog for playing flute. It works. I gave up the “classical grip” long ago. Flat fingers have less stress and span the stretch easier. And using the pads on the second joint covers the holes easier too, in my experience. Rotating the RH and LH sections to keep the wrists straight relieves even more stress.
Don’t fear the flute.
Take the time to get comfortable. And you will get comfortable but not perhaps in the first week or two or three… My point is that you should not have to compromise on the flute.
Thanks Feadoggie - that has given me a lot to think about!
The Copley sounds like the better instrument, but I have to remember that I will have a steeper learning curve than with the whistle, and that it is going to take time to produce a good sound on any instrument.
What you said about the Dixon encouraging good habits is interesting, and appeals. It is also cheaper - to the point where I can afford it sooner than the other flutes (pretty much immediately) so it would get me going sooner. By the sounds of it if/when I do look to upgrade it won’t be completely redundant either.
I think I’ll go for the Dixon. It sounds like it will do the job as a first flute. Time to start learning rather than going over and over the merits of different flutes!
Still not giving up on the low whistle. My playing is improving and I feel happier with it than I did, but it still causes me some hand pain/fatigue after playing.
Looking forward to the challenge of the flute though. I have Grey Larson’s book so will be going back to that to check out the flute advice.