Whistle Sale...Plus some thoughts on Just tuning

I have a few dandy tooters available for sale (sorry no swappin’ this time).

My keyed flute is ready ahead of schedule and I’m scramblin’ to raise necessary funds.

Burke Low-F Composite…Sold
Burke Low-A Composite…Sold
Burke C composite
Water Weasel D…Sold
Susato Eb VSB
Dixon Bb…Sold
Dixon 3-piece polymer flute…Sold

All are excellent instruments and will be replaced asap…but for now they’re up for grabs! :smiley:

In case anyone’s keeping score I’m down to two whistles…a birdseye Maple Thin Weasel and a Reyburn Low-D with just tuning. These two will not likely ever be sold.

Please reply via email or PM.

Thanks,

Doc

\


To aire is human, to jig..divine.


[ This Message was edited by: doc jones on 2003-01-04 07:58 ]

Ok, Here are the prices. Sorry to be so slow I got called away for a minute.

Burke Low-F Composite $100…Sold
Burke Low-A Composite $100…Sold
Burke C composite $85
Water Weasel D $60…Sold
Susato Eb VSB $20
Dixon Bb $25…Sold
Dixon 3-piece polymer flute $185…Sold

I’ll cover shipping in the USA

Doc


[ This Message was edited by: Doc Jones on 2003-01-03 09:06 ]

Is the just tuning to play along with U pipes ?

What’s specifically the tuning for such a low D ?

I made a low G one time, but whilest I could cover all the holes i could not blow the darn thing as me arms were to short ta get in me yap.
:cry:

I’m going to defer to Ronaldo on the intricacies of just tuning. Suffice to say it sounds fabulous with a fiddle or vocalist. I’ll email Ronaldo and see if he can help us out here.

Doc

Just intonation is a tuning system which champions the intervals between the pitches. Meaning, the ‘correct’ ratios between the notes are preserved. I can expound on this if you want.

This is in opposition to the equal temperament of the modern piano, which is tuned such that each half-step is the same distance. The advantage to this tuning is that all the keys are the ‘same,’ so you can transpose with impunity. The disadvantage is that none of the keys are perfectly in tune with themselves.

Just intonation is an OLD system, and I would think a low whistle in D would sound WONDERFUL when playing in D . . . but how would the relative minor keys sound? Like E dorian and B aeolian . . . or even the G major (with Cnat) on a just-intoned D instrument?

Interesting!

Stuart

This much of “just” temperament I kind of understand, or thought I did. Unfretted strings–OK, a C# is tiny bit sharper than a Bb, correct me if I’m wrong.
Now I thought this tuning would change intonation when going downscale as compared to upscale, and I what I don’t catch is how to achieve it with a diatonic instrument, whatever its tuning.

Stuart is right on with his description of “Just Intonation” in that the notes are ratios of the fundamental, which of course is key specific. We have grown accustomed to the sound of the “averaged” notes of equal temperament, but as Stuart has pointed out, they really don’t work perfectly and this shows up when playing with the drones of a set of pipes. The averaged notes will tend to beat against the frequency of the drones, which is a bit disconcerting. So an instrument tuned to Just temperament will play wonderfully with pipes and a fiddle player will love you for playing in Just, or solo playing will retain the smooth flow of the partials (overtones) of a Just intoned instrument.

Zubivka you asked if there is a difference between the ascending scale or descending scale in a Just intoned instrument, and I have not noticed any. I also find that Em plays fine in this scale. You ask, “how is this achieved”? There are multi-temperament tuners available on the market and I use a Korg Master Tune (which offers at least four different intonations as I remember) to do my tuning. If anyone wants to know the settings to achieve Just intonation from a standard (Equal) tuner, I’d be happy to post them. I’m not at my studio at the moment but I can get them if needed.

If you’d like to hear a Low D tuned to Just there are two clips on Tin Whistle Tunes played beautifully by Tony Higgins. The first under Slow Airs— The Coombe, and the second under Reels— The Humours Of Tullycrine. I hope this helps in your understanding of the different temperaments.

Ronaldo

Yes please post them up when you can.

The Dixon has a new home. :slight_smile:

Doc

Just intonation is just so much sweeter compared to equal temperament and it suit Irish music a lot better. Recently Wandering whistler complained his generations were nearly 20 off on some notes. Well, maybe that’s how they were meant to be .

Which Dixon has the new home…the whistle
or the flute ?

On 2002-12-31 12:29, wizzy wrote:
Yes please post them up when you can.

To toot my own whistle, they are already posted. Click below. :slight_smile: I’ll say this about the Reyburn low D I own: When I first got it and for quite some time, I felt a lot of frustration with the reach, and consequently didn’t play it much. About a month ago, I sat down and played Humours of Tullycrine over and over, intent on getting a passable recording. By the time I was passably satisfied, I had a much better handle on the instrument and feel much more comfortable playing it. I also felt it was very demanding regarding breath control. This is fairly true, but I sometimes tap into a sweet spot of air pressure and it moves nicely. This applies to low d’s in general; they are harder to play than high d’s. (D’ya think?) It takes a combination of getting accustomed to the reach and getting the breathing right. Either one will mess you up and frustrate you until you figure it out. And if you can coordinate the two, that’s even better.

Regarding the tunings, I’ve always noticed in slow airs that standard tuning sounds too sharp in the higher notes. I don’t notice it at all in fast tunes.
Tony
Tony

On 2002-12-31 11:19, Zubivka wrote:
Unfretted strings–OK, a C# is tiny bit sharper than a Bb, correct me if I’m wrong.
Now I thought this tuning would change intonation when going downscale as compared to upscale. . .

I assume that you mean that C# is a tiny bit sharper than Db, which would be correct. I think C# is sharp to Bb no matter how you tune. :wink:

As for the scale flattening as you go down and sharpening on the way up . . . to follow Zoob’s question and Ronaldo’s response, actually, this is the case.

If you were to tune a piano “justly,” this is how you’d do it. Take a pitchfork, but only one, and tune that note. A=440Hz, for example. Then tune all the other A’s to that A. You’ll notice, if you use an analyzer, that to sound “correct,” your A’s will get a little sharp to the predicted values the further you go up the scale. Meaning, while the next A might come out to 880Hz, the following A might be 1762Hz or sharper. Likewise, as you went down the scale, the notes would get a little flatter. I’m not sure exactly why it is, but the phenomenon is well-described.

There are more tuning systems. Meantone tuning is a system which keeps the ratios such that the major thirds (C-E, D-F#) are the most in tune, at the expense of making the fifths (C-G, D-A) slightly out of tune. Meantone was more common at the beginning of polyphony, I think, when Western music moved from simple organum (which refers, I think, to fixed intervals between lines, at say, a fifth) to more complicated harmonies which needed in-tune thirds. There’s even a “golden meantone” tuning based on the constant phi which is the mean of the quotients of adjacent elements of the Fibonacci sequence. Phi is also the ratio of width::height of a lot of Greek temples because the ratio was thought pleasant to the eye.

Down with equal temperament! JUSTice or BAN!

Stuart

On 2002-12-31 14:02, Peter Laban wrote:
Recently Wandering whistler complained his generations were nearly 20 off on some notes. Well, maybe that’s how they were meant to be.

Lol, there’s a rationalization for poor QA if I ever heard it. :slight_smile: If they were meant to be that way, then the other ones (the ones not off) were out of tune…or are you suggesting that generation is mixing just and equal tempered instruments just kinda at random? I find it hard to imagine.

I must concur with my fellow Houstonian that Generation QA is probably just plain poor.

OR . . . Generation has one kick-butt whistle tuner genius who’s messing with us.

And the off-kilter whistles, if they’re really just-intoned, will sound fine. Why bother checking the whole scale with a tuner? Check the bell note and listen to the rest of the scale. OR, better yet, have your tuner play the bell note and play the scale against it. That’d tell you how in tune it is!

Stuart

Meantone is used for tuning concertinas, by some people at least.

A while Uilleann pipemaker Geoff Wooff and myself were listening to a CD with Bach music for which the clavithingy was tuned differently to suit every piece. Highly interesting and listening should be made mandatory for all the guys here who think their whistle is perfect if the equal tempered tuning machine says all notes are dead on.

If you were to tune a piano “justly,” this is how you’d do it. Take a pitchfork, but only one, and tune that note. A=440Hz, for example. Then tune all the other A’s to that A. You’ll notice, if you use an analyzer, that to sound “correct,” your A’s will get a little sharp to the predicted values the further you go up the scale. Meaning, while the next A might come out to 880Hz, the following A might be 1762Hz or sharper. Likewise, as you went down the scale, the notes would get a little flatter. I’m not sure exactly why it is, but the phenomenon is well-described.

Stuart the phenomenon is called the “comma” and the reason for it is that God made a mistake. At least that’s as good as any answer I can find.

If you tune a piano the way you describe, I’m pretty sure your ear would in fact lead you to tune the octaves mathematically perfectly, with a perfect 2:1 ratio between the frequencies every time. Your ear would not tolerate octaves that are not perfectly in tune.

What you would then have to fudge would be the fifths - the other integer-to-integer mathematical ratio between notes in the scale (3:2).

The comma or discrepancy arises when you follow the circle of perfect fifths: you soon end up with an octave that is out of tune. This means that any instrument with a range of more than an octave or two is going to run into trouble pretty quick.

In other words there probably is no perfect, just tuning system. Great minds have been at work on this one since Pythagoras’ time.

A page that I found very helpful is this one: http://www.rdrop.com/~tblackb/music/temperament/. The author gives several tuning systems that have been tried over the epochs.

He explains the comma business very well. I finally understood why my cello-playing sister told me that for playing string quartets she has to tune her bottom string about a quarter-tone sharp in order to stay in tune with the violins. Weird!


[ This Message was edited by: StevieJ on 2002-12-31 17:15 ]

Ah, some posts have come in since my little experiment, so:

I grabbed a random Generation from my desk, and did the hot water treatment to make it tunable, even though I’m really against that for a non-tunable whistle. I made sure there was no plastic in the windway, and the whistle is clean. I tuned on A. With that tuning, this particular generation ends up:

D +15
E +15
F# -7
G +8
A 0
B +27(!)
C# 0
C-nat at 0XX000 +57(!)
C-nat at 0XXXX0 -8

Now, based upon this](http://chiffboard.mati.ca/viewtopic.php?topic=5180&forum=1%22%3Ethis) thread I get the impression that just temperament should be something totally different.
I think it’s safe to say that if Generation is attempting to make their whistles just tempered they’re failing just as badly as if they were shooting for even temperament.

Now, as for a ‘clavthingy’ tuning differently for every piece, surely it’s not being suggested that we carry a reamer and JB Weld and fundamentally alter our whistles to suit every piece. :wink:




[ This Message was edited by: Wandering_Whistler on 2002-12-31 17:18 ]

Stuart, thanks for the direct answer. I knew that “helical” demonstration for just tuning. For theory, I’m about OK, the prob’ is applying it.
I reckoned fiddlers/violonists correct by ear (and thanks for correcting my typo) between C# up and Db down. OK.

But for them bow-stringers, it’s so easy : just bend your left fingers up or down.( :wink: don’t worry : I’m scared to death of facing these free-tune instruments; I envy them, too. However, they can brag about chromaticity (yo!) but don’t exactly sound IMHO like whistles or even (yo! yo!) recorders). Parenthesis ended so…

Here’s my problem : how can you make them bloody # be tad sharp going up and tad flat going down on a bloody diatonic instrument, or even bloody-even-tempered * chromatic :confused:
There’s gotta be some sacrifice somewhere. Is the whole set of # to be sharpened ? But then it will be distinctly off going down…

*I mean on a piano, 't would be easy: just double every black kee :laughing:

** Hey it’s all me : I AM a bloody-even-tempered man. Just like General Bourricot (1745-1814, Bourricot Jean, Charles, Marcel, born/maiden-named Velin d’Arches Arriba, Juanita) wrote in our history with red-gold letters : Moderation, more moderation, ever more modernisation !

[ This Message was edited by: Zubivka on 2002-12-31 17:45 ]