I’be been visiting the flute forum lately as I am trying the flute. I was foolish enough to challenge Jemtheflute. he was giving embouchure advice to a whistle player who wants to play flute. If was was saavy enough l’d put a link here.
Anyway, the gist of it was that he was saying that he doubted and never has seen written, played or spoken about the fact that tightening your lips, rather than blowing louder, is a method used to help jumping octaves. I find that it is crucial in order to get a smooth transition for both high and low whistles.
I know that the guru is an advocate of such method. Just curious what others think. I think/know that it makes the octave jump flow smoothly. Much more suitable than having to lay off the lower octave so you can blow harder on the second. It’s a good practice and sets you up nicely for transition to flute. IMVHO
I don’t believe any teacher I’ve encountered (most being well known professionals) have ever recommended tightening the lips. Most will recommend having a relaxed lip and mouth, some will recommend opening the jaw some too, just resting the beak of the whistle on the lower lip. To hit higher notes on a whistle you have to increase the velocity of the air hitting the blade. It is possible that if you reduce the size of your aperture that you will increase the flow of the air but it’s not what I see being recommended.
Yikes. I guess I’m not 100% sure what’s being described here. I certainly wouldn’t advocate anything regarding flute embouchure, since I’m a crappy flute player.
On fipple flutes (whistle, recorder), manipulating the flow of air into the instrument is normal of course, adjusting it throughout the range of the instrument as you go, according to the particular instrument’s response and ease of speaking. For Gens and other small windway whistles, a steady flow to the upper notes usually does the trick. For larger windway instruments such as Susatos and others, a slight constriction of the airflow to those notes by tightening the lips may be the bee’s knees, and whistle1000’s delight.
I honestly don’t know what the general pedagogy says, Feadoggie. My fancy schmancy recorder mentors were all certainly aware of the technique. Seems kind of second nature by now.
There you go! What do I know? I never had any fancy schmancy recorder teachers though, just whistle teachers. And I was likely confused over what was being asked too - whistle vs. flute. The technique is quite different in my experience. And what is “blowing louder”? Anyway, this is why I rarely give advice on how to play on this forum.
As I said, I can see where reducing the aperture (constricting the air flow) would have an effect of increasing the speed of the air - like reducing the aperture on the nozzle of a water hose. And I will admit that there are whistles that seem to require that to hit the high notes. I don’t usually like such whistles. And you know I like Susatos so that’s not one of them IMO.
Bottom line, whatever works for you, works for you.
I’ve been playing recorder since around 1975, whistles since the mid-80’s (sometimes semi-professionally) and I can’t convince myself that embouchure makes any sense in these instruments. The embouchure is built in and fixed. You can blow harder or softer which pushes more air through the windway but that’s about it. The windway IS the embouchure, analogous to the opening between your lips when you play a transverse flute. In the case of the flute, you CAN alter the size and shape of that opening and alter the distance from that opening to the sound producing edge. This allows the player to change the tone of the instrument in many ways. In a fipple flute though, whatever you do outside of that windway apart from blowing harder or softer is, in my opinion, purely subjective.
My logical, wanting to keep things simple part of my brain wants to agree with brewerpaul … but my experience with SOME whistles and recorders (I’ll admit I’m not a recorder player - though I can get a nice sound out of one) is that the embouchure does make a difference in the quality of the sound and the pitch. I capitalize SOME because ‘other’ instruments do not respond to changes in embouchure as much (or perhaps at all).
As to tightening the lips to jump the octave - I just tried it and I guess maybe I do change the embouchure a bit as well as increasing the velocity of the air to go up an octave and it could be described as tightening though it is subtle and more than ‘just tightening’ - It is so hard to describe in any useful way how to play any wind instrument so I’m not going to bother trying further! One final thought(s) don’t bite the whistle - loose is good - if you don’t believe me watch a video of Joanie Madden and watch the mouth piece wiggle. So maybe we should say the embouchure should be loose or a touch looser - don’t think tight! And only put the very tip (or less) of the whistle in you mouth.
I’m enjoying the discussion do far. Picking up on what Highwood is saying, I’ll bet that alot of players do naturally tighten their lips when jumping octaves. Especially if they play with the beak resting gently on the lips.
I’m not comparing whistle playing to flute playingI have been reading about flute embouchure and I realise that the tightening of the lips does relate to the whistle as well when jumping.
Fedaoggie, I obviously meant blowing Harder not LOUDER. I do admit though that my op is a little confusing.
I’be not had any teachers but I have played professionally for over 15 years and have played at many high profile festivals and venues. BIG DEAL says you all. That being said, I’ve come across many great whistle players. As embouchure had never been on my mind, it never came up. I don’t think it does
really but I do think that it has some merit and I believe that most accomplished players just do it naturally. I invite you all to be aware of it and test yourselves. I bet that a good percentage of you do it naturally.
By that logic, you may as well refute the existence of clarinet embouchure or trumpet embouchure. You absolutely can alter the sound of a whistle by making changes to the way you focus the airstream entering the whistle. Changing the lips, the shape of the whole mouth, even the shape of the throat, can all have an effect on the sound of a whistle. Are you doing the exact same things that you do when you change embouchure on a flute? No, but you are applying the same principle. I do find that it is much less effective on purer-sounding whistles - to the point of not being worth trying.
Honestly, you tricked me. I was convinced I heard a very subtle
difference between Clip1 and Clip2 and was racking my brain to
figure out what it was: “is the second a little airier maybe? Oh
wait, why are the file names the same?”
P.S. I’d greatly appreciate the tune name, Tunepal can’t seem
to suss it out when I play it your clip. It’s a very cool tune.
Although the lips and mouth stay relaxed, I do find that the lowest note on a whistle is easier to hit by opening up the throat as well as controlling the breath), and vice versa, the highest notes on are easier to get by closing up the throat (and using a little more breath). I’m not sure about the physics of it, but this was taught to me by my recorder teacher and it works for me.
Since no one has ventured a guess, the prize goes to … Dr. Phill, for guessing correctly (via PM) that Clips #1 and #2 are actually of the same whistle. In this case, a Susato C.
The only difference is embouchure. Clip #2 is played full tilt - whistle straight out, large mouth cavity, and lips far down on the beak. Clip #1 is played very tight - small cavity, beak just touching the lips, whistle angled to the side, lips tightly compressed and blocking about half the windway opening.
Everything else is the same - microphone, EQ, distance to mike, etc. Only the embouchure was changed.
I don’t really recommend position #1, though it does produce a nice flute-like sound from a Susato, especially for recording. I usually play Susatos somewhere between the two extremes, and reserve #2 for session blasting when called for.
But the embouchure difference is real, I think, and not merely subjective. #1 changes the default tone considerably, with more breathiness and flutiness, less volume, and almost none of the “bite” and harsh “chirp” sometimes associated with Susatos.
The effect of embouchure tricks on particular whistles will vary, of course. But the basic idea still holds that the player does have a degree of control over the tone even of a fipple flute.
It may just be terminology, Paul, but I think you’re defining embouchure too narrowly.
Yes, an edge-blown flute embouchure does give a high degree of control. But flute is really the odd man out in the woodwind world. Single reeds and double reeds have only partial player control through lip position and pressure. As with fipples, the preset geometry determines much of the sound - in the case of reeds, the type of cane, mouthpiece tip slope, ligature tightness, bridle position, etc. Yet there’s no question that the term embouchure is routinely applied to these.
I think it helps to think of the air flow as a continuous system or chain of elements, from the lungs at one end to the instrument at the other. The point at which the player-to-instrument interface occurs along that chain will vary. For an edge flute, it’s at the outflow of the duct (formed by the lips). For a whistle, it’s at the inflow of the duct. Behind that point, lips and mouth are still under user control, and embouchure still applies when defined as the user’s anatomical ability to shape the interface with the instrument.
The previou s post was meant to follow your response to Dr. Phil. I certainly would not claim to exactly think gurus last post. I could never be able to pen such excellent explaniations. Well said guru
he was giving embouchure advice to a whistle player who wants to play flute. If was was saavy enough l’d put a link here.
