This thread is along similar lines to my previous thread that was discussing the change in the quality of Dixon Trads over time. However, I am wanting to discuss other makers where a similar drastic (or at very least, noticeable) change in quality has been noted.
Part of my motivation for making this post is the arrival of an old Feadog Mark 1 whistle that arrived not long ago, which I acquired for just a few dollars. I originally bought it for tweaking purposes, thinking it would be a run-of-the-mill low quality Feadog. However, after playing the whistle, I have changed my mind on doing any sort of non-reversible modifications to it. I’ve commented multiple times about my distaste for modern Feadog whistles, however this old one, much like the Dixon Trad, is completely different from the new Feadogs. Very clear sounding, plays cleanly, a very sweet whistle. It is a bit overly mellow for me to play as my main whistle, but I have had a lot of fun with it, and consider it to be of high-end quality. I’ve played far worse $200+ whistles.
Likewise, a lot of people have commented on the change in the quality of Generation whistles. I have never played a pre-1982 Gen, so I can not comment on this. I did, however, score a box of 5 old Generation whistles for a ridiculously low price from a seller who likely thought they were worthless children’s toys. 2 C’s, a D, and an F. They have yet to arrive, but I’m interested to see whether or not the vintage Gen hype is well-founded.
Feel free to discuss anything related to vintage Feadogs and Gens, if you like. However, I made this post because I am curious whether this change in quality is limited to Feadogs, Gens, and Dixons, or if there are any other whistles where such a change in quality has been noted. Clarke’s? Soodlums? Waltons? etc…
I am especially interested to hear of any old cheap whistles where this type of situation might apply, as the good examples of this type of whistle usually have the type of sound I prefer a whistle to have, at least according to my experience with them thus far. Interested to know whether there are any other brands that are worth seeking out older specimens of.
Also, what is the reason for this decrease in quality? It seems it has coincided with the arrival of many high-end whistle makers. Is there any correlation between the two? I know Generation replaced their moulds, but is this true for Feadog and Dixon as well? You would think that surely someone working with the companies can actually play, and would immediately notice the difference in quality and want to do something about it…
Anyway, I’m interested to read any further information on the topic, or any opinions or experiences of anyone else here that relates to this broad subject, as I’ve found it very interesting as of late. I’m also interested in the chronology of such changes.
I think you need to differentiate between changing design and changing quality.
A lot of whistle makes have changed their design over time, trying to achieve something different to satisfy the demand of the larger portion of their buyers.
I believe you’ll find most changes from the old Generations or old Feadógs (and probably Oaks for that matter) are related to increasing the volume and the stability of the lower octave, in the process compromising the sweetness of the higher octave. A deliberate decision of the designer, driven by the demand for a louder whistle. Win some, loose some.
Wear and tear on moulds over time is another thing, that’s change in quality.
Other than that, injection moulding is not the most consistent of processes at the best of time, pre 1982 you had to work at finding the nicer whistles out of a batch of Generations, just as you have to these days.
Was this a new or used whistle purchase? How do you know the old whistle hadn’t been tweaked in some way already?
Quality and design concerns are enjoyed here on the forum (me), however, these same queries could be addressed with the particular whistlemakers as customer feedback. I’ve read the Chiff history about Generations. Has anyone recently contacted any of the manufacturers about quality, design, or playability concerns? Just saying.
The push for more volume in whistles is unfortunate, I think. Since the physics of the instrument naturally put it risk of a shrill second octave, I’d think designing the whistle from the top down, so to speak, would make sense. (In other words, when the volume/strength of the bottom notes starts to compromise the top notes, stop there.) I suppose the whistle is going through the same loudness evolution orchestral instruments faced in the 19th century as concert halls grew.
I once had a Mark I Feadóg, and it was indeed a sweet whistle. I don’t recall the bottom end being weak or unstable, so why change a good design? Seems like more’s been lost than won.
The push for more volume in whistles is unfortunate
It is. Some instruments, not just the whistle, work better when they are not set up to scream at you.
But look at the forums, people want to ‘cut through’ even when they try play in environments that a not suitable for a whistle. The old players had it: for volume in noisy places, they took up the flute.
Another current issue is ‘foolproofing’ instruments. Many people consider instruments that demand skills (breath control) from beginners unsuitable. Rather than learn the skill they come up with whistles that are insensitive (well, in fairness, less sensitive) to breath input. But something has to give when you do that.
Interesting topic, Sirchronique. I do think that things are subject to change over time generally. Doesn’t matter whether we talk about mass produced whistles or of boutique whistles. Why things change? Who knows? I talk to some smaller volume makers and they feel they make changes to better their products.
You have likely read the opinions that a few of us have shared about our Feadog Mk I preferences. They are my favorite mass produced whistle. Some love them, some don’t. I’ve got a nice little cache of them bought mostly as NOS in my travels. But I’ve mostly felt that my attachment to them had more to do with the fact that I spent more time with one of those whistles than any other in my younger days. Much of my learning involved that Feadog. So I kind of thought I was just being sentimental, you know, comfortable old shoes and the like.
The Feadog Mark II was a noticeably different whistle. The tuning changed. The tone changed. It took me a while to realize that it was changed physically from the older ones. I am not at all sure why it was changed, just that it did. I had heard somewhere that the manufacturing had either moved or changed to meet new demands. But who knows? It changed … and it changed again. I do not play the current Feadog whistles. Things change. We move on.
I always liked Generation whistles well enough too. They changed. Somehow that did not bother me as much. A lot of what I liked in the older whistles was still there in the newer ones. Maybe they just did a better job of continuity. Maybe they were more on top of the characteristics that they needed to maintain. Yet other players may have found the changes to make a world of difference.
Soodlums changed, mostly to Waltons. I found many of their models to be hit or miss. The best thing about them is that they are easy to find and are widely available in gift shops with a shamrock kind of theme. I kind of liked the Soodlums C whistles. I have quite a few of those. I like the Mellow D too. The Soodlum/Waltons tubes are/have been well designed. The heads seem to be more inconsistent than some other brands though - at least on those that I’ve bought. That is just my opinion. I frequently change out the heads on these with my own shop made heads and it makes a good whistle. Same with Mack Hoover’s heads, makes a really sweet whistle. I don’t do a lot of head/body swapping among mass produced brands.
Oak whistles changed at one point. The taste of the head was new. Some noticed a numbing of their lips I recall. Otherwise they seem to sound and play much as they have for a long time. It is a pretty decent whistle. It plays the music. It has a fairly unique sound. I enjoy picking one up from time to time.
Other whistles changed by disappearing from the market. Things change. We will still play what we prefer.
To take Feadoggie’s comment on the early Feadóg a bit further, I would probably agree the appreciation we see here is a new found one. I don’t remember the first model as particularly popular, in fact I always thought they looked clunky and ugly, had too many stickers on them and I never saw one played by any whistle player I admired as a player.
Around 1997 I bought a few nickel Feadógs that I know know to be a model 2. I bought them really because I had arrived somewhere without my own whistles and they were the cheapest available (£2.50) to get an afternoon’s playing. Going up the street in the direction of the arranged tunes, the whistle fell from my pocket and bounced off the pavement. Sparking a passerby to shout ‘Ah a Feadóg, sign of a dedicated whistle player’. And that came between tags.
They’re nice enough whistles though. Now the Feadóg pro I ordered a few months ago (bored, sunday afternoon, sale), don’t get me started on that.
Where it’s a medium/smaller-scale maker with an obvious ‘face’ like Tony Dixon (who I’ve found most helpful when I’ve dealt with him), it seems like the obvious thing to do. But dealing with the true mass-producers like Generation could be more futile?
True story: it was my whistle of choice when I played in a local band in the early 1990s, and my recommendation for beginners on a handout dated 12 March 1993, which stated (bluntly) ‘The best cheap whistle is the “Feadog” in D, available from most music shops [naming a Fort William outlet that’s long since moved premises and stopped selling whistles]’. Might add that this was before I was aware of any other type of Feadog (so when did the Mark 2 come out?), was otherwise playing old-style Generations, Eagle two-piece (predecessor of the Clare?), original Clarke C, Bernard Overton A, G and low D, probably some higher Shaws (I had from E nat down to Bb) and still a few months short of discovering Susatos. (Think I also still had an early Howard low D, but never played it because the second octave was so sharp.)
Edit: it’s a historic document (handwritten and talks about tapes!) based on the more limited range of available materials and my more limited experience back then, so don’t laugh!
PS My copy of Cotter’s book came not with tapes but flexible plastic records!
I have several pre-'82 gens on their way to me right now (in addition to the aforementioned box), and one of them arrived, a red-top in D. It is quite significantly better in comparison to any of the several modern gen D’s that I own. Maybe I am lucky and my first one just happened to be a nicer quality one, but that doesn’t seem likely. So, if this represents a lower quality than the higher quality examples of vintage gens, then the highest quality ones must really be quite nice, as I’m thoroughly pleased with this D. The sound is better, and the playability is significantly better. But, I suppose this is subjective.
I can’t say I notice any significant difference in volume at all between old and new gens, but maybe I need to assess how they compare more thoroughly. With some whistles, there may indeed have been a change to make it louder (i.e. Feadogs). However, with Generations I don’t see how any of the modern changes could have brought about any qualities that anyone could find more desirable, unless one thinks the (imo) lesser quality has a certain charm to it. The only modern Gen that I play regularly and think is a very nice whistle is the Bb. I have three of them, and I don’t notice much variance in quality from whistle to whistle with the Bb’s like I do with their other keys, as every one of them sounds and plays nicely. Have the Bb’s changed much since pre-82 like the D’s have?
Now, regarding the comments on the old Feadog MK1 whistle I mentioned:
The old Feadog whistle didn’t appear to have been used at all. It was in the original clear plastic box with a booklet, didn’t look played around the fingerholes, and none of the labels were peeling or anything. I’m quite certain it was not tweaked in any way. I was not aware of the MK1 model until after I had already received it. I noticed it was different, but was not expecting it to be very good. After discovering it was a fine whistle I did some research on Chiff and Fipple and discovered what it was that I had, and read several other good reviews of them that were along the same lines as the three positive reviews of them earlier in this very thread. They are not at all the same as the later models of Feadog, even the MK2. Completely different whistle. Plays differently, sounds differently, looks quite different, etc.
I can see how these might have been changed for more volume, though. I don’t consider it to be a “weak” whistle, but it just has a sweet and very mellow sound. Very clean tone and plays extremely smoothly. It has a larger windway, as well. I agree with earlier comments about increasing the volume for whistles. I personally don’t like the sound of a whistle to be “on top” in a large group of players, and think they are better suited for small groups, solo playing, or to “blend” with the sound of other instruments in larger groups, rather than blast through them. Flutes and pipes are better for more volume, I like whistles that are smooth playing, bubbly, chirpy, and not overbearing. On that note, the old Feadogs hit many of those marks and are good whistles to my taste. I also think many whistles that people deem as “not loud enough” penetrate much more than the player may realise in some cases.
I think that contacting large producers such as Generation or Feadog would most likely be a waste of time. Wouldn’t hurt, though, I suppose. However, I did contact Dixon about the change in their trads some time ago, and finally received a response recently, and they explained a bit about the changes they made and said they’d take my feedback into consideration with future models. I’ll get more into that here in a moment (as well as on the Dixon thread, eventually).
Okay, I forget what I was going to say. So, about the Dixon Trads that have undergone significant changes since their superb early models..
I wrote to Dixon about my observations regarding the differences between their earlier trad (and heavy brass/thick wall whistles), and mentioned that others have had similar opinions about the changes that their design has underwent. Some weeks passed and no response, but finally I got an email from them. The main portion of it reads:
We do periodically look at our designs, sometimes redesigning our flutes and whistles are carried out to make what we believe to be improvements or tweaks are forced to ensure production methods are kept economic to keep the prices of our instruments affordable, without effecting the quality (or so we hope) Unfortunately we do not hold any old stock for sale I am afraid.
That being said, we will certainly be using your comments next time we look to make any improvements to our designs. Thank you again for your feedback.
So, from that, my conclusion (which may or may not be correct) is that they were changed to allow them to cheaply and efficiently churn out more instruments, and quality suffered at the expense of profit. I hope later models will return to something more similar to their old design. I expect a large portion of their current whistle sales likely result from the fact that it rides on the reputation of their earlier whistles. It really is unfortunate, as, before discovering that they had changed design, I recommended Dixon Trads to people quite frequently. I wish they would at least differentiate their new whistles from the old ones by using a different name for them, or something like “Version 2”, etc… Searching this forum yields a lot of reviews of their older whistles which simply do not apply to their new ones, which may mislead customers.
I can’t say I notice any significant difference in volume at all between old and new gens, but maybe I need to assess how they compare more thoroughly.
The change in window size would seem to speak for itself where intention is concerned. The difference in volume on the D at least is, to me , not huge, yet obvious.
For sure when I started out everyone was playing Generation D’s, all the players I heard on the albums and the good players I was fortunate to see in person.
Though I’ve tried every Generation D I could get my hands on since around 1977 I’ve never found that supreme wonderful diamond in the rough. (Ditto Generation Bb’s, but the Generation C I also got around 1980 is the best whistle I’ve ever played.)
The Feadog I bought around 1980 didn’t play like supremely good Generations, it’s true, but it played better than the Generations I was able to find for sale, and it’s been my go-to whistle since I bought it. I certainly have played Generation D’s which were better than my Feadog, combining it’s sweet high notes with more fullness and roundness in the low notes, however these whistles were owned by players and not for sale.
I’ve bought Generations and Copelands and Sindts and Burkes and many other things over the decades, but none has played quite as well as that Feadog.
About the vagaries of Generation whistles over the years, there is someone, who I can’t recall, who wrote a detailed account stating at what points they introduced new moulds, at what points the moulds were in poor condition, and so forth.
You never know! In the 90’s some guy was taking some whistle lessons from me. He went down to a local ordinary music shop, picked up a Generation D at random, and it was very good. This surprised me because I had regularly played the Generations at that very shop for years and not found a decent one, and after that lesson I ran down there only to find all the Generations they had were mediocre or below. He miraculously bought, perhaps, the only good Generation that shop had had in 20 years.
You are right. I mentioned the bit about perhaps needing to do a better assessment because I didn’t have them both near me at the time. After doing a side-by-side comparison playing one after the other, the new ones are indeed somewhat louder. That being said, I still think it is a poor trade-off, considering how the playability and sound seems to have taken a back seat to volume, especially in regards to the upper octave.
I think that perhaps the C’s are just especially good. I got a brass and a nickel C that I bought together, and the very slightly better of my two old gen D’s was only about half as good as the nickel C, and the brass C that came with it was quite significantly better than the nickel. I really started seeking out older generations after playing that brass C, as it is great.
Then I recently got another nickel one, and it is significantly better than even that great brass one, pretty much as you have described yours, pancelticpiper. Sweet mellow top end, and a full round bottom (heh). I think maybe the design and mold they used for their C’s was just particularly good. I can’t imagine anyone having to hunt around much to find a good C back then, if decades later someone can buy three and all are quite good. I’m a bit skeptical that even any of the best gen D’s could match the quality of one of their standard quality old C’s, but I suppose two D’s isn’t enough to form an opinion on. I hope to be proven wrong, but there is such a significant difference between all specimens I’ve played of the two keys that a part of me is doubtful. I think generation simply made a lot of really good C’s.
I think that perhaps the C’s are just especially good. I got a brass and a nickel C that I bought together, and the very slightly better of my two old gen D’s was only about half as good as the nickel C, and the brass C that came with it was quite significantly better than the nickel. I really started seeking out older generations after playing that brass C, as it is great.
I have a couple of ‘old’ Cs and one ‘new’ one, to be honest I don’t find them all that different (although I’ll admit the ‘new’ one was given to me after the original owner had died so perhaps he had picked a ‘nice’ one). One of the old ones is one Micho Russell used to get off me to do the odd concert on during the eighties. He thought it was particularly lovely and came back for it year after year (and I made sure he didn’t ‘forget’ to return it after his gig) but again, to show how subjective these things are, I don’t find it significantly different from the other ones.
I’m a bit skeptical that even any of the best gen D’s could match the quality of one of their standard quality old C’s
Ofcourse they can. Among the loveliest whistles I have ever come across was one ‘old’ style D Gen that belonged to a deceased well known West Clare fluteplayer (it was in his flutecase, treasured by his widow. And she would have given me the whistle if I had asked but that didn’t seem right), a ‘new’ Gen D, belonging to a well known Clare player. And to match those one of Cillian O Briain’s ‘improved’ in a box of some fifty of his for sale (they were all lovely but one just had ‘it’. I didn’t have the 25 euro to spare though).
On thesession.org someone mentioned the misplaced ‘fetishisation’ of 1970s whistles that’s allegedly going on on this forum. He’s probably right (I would agree FWIW). My take is that while some of the earlier injection moulded whistles had by design a higher octave that was sweeter (but for some at the cost of the lower register, which was reversed by later designs) their consistency from one whistle to the other was still dictated by the process. They were as variable in quality as the ones produced today and a large portion of them were ‘unremarkable’ (if serviceable and perfectly fine to learn and play on).
I have said it before, the odd ones out, the best ones, are possibly ones that in some way came out in a way other than originally planned. Some of the most prized ones I have seen were visibly out of whack and seemed to have found their lucky perfect alignment by accident rather than by design.
I seem to remember Seán Potts telling me something similar about his old Generation one, the one he used during his early Chieftain days. It was odd, beautiful and he didn’t ever find one quite like it since it was stolen after a Chieftains concert.
I still think it is a poor trade-off, considering how the playability and sound seems to have taken a back seat to volume, especially in regards to the upper octave.
It’s the whistle maker’s ultimate challenge, to find that perfect balance between a strong lower end and a sweet high end. Yet, if the opinions on the forums are anything to go by, a large group of whistle players are always calling for louder whistles to ‘cut through’ (whatever that means, in my experience a whistle you can’t hear yourself while playing may well be heard crystal clear on the other side of the room), so the new model can be assumed to have been a response to demand from customers.
Some ten years ago it was announced here (by Dale, or perhaps one of the other mods) that Brian Howard had been called in to give the Generation head design a re-vamp. Newly designed moulds would be introduced (starting with the Bflat) over time during the naughties. I have never heard if that change was implemented or not.
I’ve played old Generation D’s and Bb’s which were fantastic, probably about as good as my C, but they weren’t for sale.
I think it’s the happenstance that, though I’ve played hundreds of Generation D’s and Bb’s in various shops etc over the last 35+ years, I’ve just not happened upon that magical rare one.
As I said, I regularly monitored the Generations at a local shop for decades, never finding a good one, then a student goes in and grabs the first Generation D he sees (without trying it) and it’s great.
Pancelticpiper stated “I think that perhaps the C’s are just especially good. I got a brass and a nickel C that I bought together, and the very slightly better of my two old gen D’s was only about half as good as the nickel C, and the brass C that came with it was quite significantly better than the nickel. I really started seeking out older generations after playing that brass C, as it is great.”
I’m not that familiar with the line of Generations… but my guess about the superior quality of the Cs is that they use the same size tubing for both the D and the C which means that the bore to length ratio of the C is higher which can significantly change the way the whistle plays.
I also use the same tubing for my D/C sets and I prefer the way the C plays. The bottom end is slightly quieter and the upper octave plays far more sweetly compared to the D.
As already stated, generation uses a different bore size for C and D. Also, it was me that said the initial quote, not PCP.
I do agree with your opinion on length to bore ratio, though. When I buy whistles that use the same bore for various keys, I tend to prefer the way the lower keys play, within reason. Once it is taken too far it is a bit too much, but I think most D/C whistle sets tend to play more to my liking with the C tube. Often though, this is on the type of whistles where the D is meant to be quite robust and less sensitive.
Based on a small sample of pre-1950s Generations and some lines of late 19th -early 20th century whistles that can be considered forerunners of the brand, I believe the same hole spacings and tube sizes Generation uses, have been around for a very long time.
I just like to add that in the past couple of days I have picked up a batch of these ‘vintage’ whistle including a Mark I Feadóg. I can see why Richard might like it but at the same time I can also see why they wanted to improve on it. I have a few nickel/black Mark IIs which I feel were a genuine, if not huge, improvement on their predecessor. YMMV ofcourse.
Among the cache I got are also a few Gen Cs, one with the label where the name is in red instead of the gold. I used to see those sometimes during the early seventies and considered them to be an older vintage, 1960s perhaps(?). It may well be a misprint (gold ink ran out) they used up as the photo above shows an early fifties one with gold lettering. Anyone with an informed take on that, period wise?
