Which notes sound better when played off pitch.

Whistle
1

In a session last week an experienced musician commented that F# sounds better played up to 13 cents flat. What other notes sound better played off pitch and how much off.

The back story is I usually sit to the right of the lead flute player so I can match pitch with her. On this occasion I was late and did not get my regular seat. This left me wallowing in the cacophony coming off the hard surfaces in the room. We were learning Hewlett so we were playing it very slowly over and over and there a a lot of high F#s in the tune.

So my question was what do you do when you can’t hear and moving isn’t an option. And his answer was when in doubt the F# sounds better played up to 13 cents flat.

2

Maybe his ears are just used to the somewhat flat F# of some (most?) R&Rs?

3

He was more likely thinking, correctly, of non equal tempered intonation.

4

Thanks for that. I got a lot of google hits with that phrase. :thumbsup:

5

I think it’s the just intonation thing, too.

Wikipedia has a mouthful on the topic, but here are what I think are the important points for playing Irish music: to play in just intonation, your major thirds, sixths, and sevenths need to be a bit narrow, between about 12 to 16 cents narrow. Also, your minor thirds, sixths, and sevenths need to be a bit wide, between about 12 to 16 cents wide.

So, in the key of D, to play in just intonation you need to play the F#, the B, and the C# all a bit flat, about 12 to 16 cents flat.

6

In D major a just F# is about 14 cents flat of an equal tempered F#,
it is 5/4 of the root frequency,
a just B about 16 cents flat of an equal tempered B,
it is 5/3 of the root frequency,
and a just C# about 12 cents flat of an equal tempered C#,
it is 15/8 of the root frequency.

But the F# is not really flat or off pitch, it is perfectly in tune - in harmony - with the root note (D) and the fifth (A). It just appears off pitch on an equal tempered (digital) tuner. To the ear an equal tempered F# sounds sharpish and a bit disharmonic in relation to D and A.

7

Thanks for all of the replies. The bad news is I think I screwed up my perfectly good ear (from 40 years of playing trombone) by using a digital tuner while playing airs. I was trying to understand how hard I needed to blow each note. The good news is I now have a deeper understanding of intonation and I feel confident I can undue a months worth of mis-calibration.

In retrospect this helps explain the cognitive dissonance that was created when my eyes were saying I needed to blow harder but my ears were saying I needed to blow softer. I assumed I was just being timid in the upper register and I needed to play out with more confidence.

I sent an email to Fishman. My tuner has a little chevron that moves up and down the left side of the screen to show how far from pitch you are. I asked them if each step of the chevron indicates a certain number of cents from pitch. If so I can use the tuner to play around with different scales, otherwise, I’ll just let my ear work its way back to normal or look for a tuner that indicates cents.

8

After much reading on this site as well as others and a little playing around with a tuner I have come to the following conclusion about playing my Burke whistle.

If the session is playing in the general vicinity of ET based on A 440 tune the whistle to the factory set line. This allows for playing an ET scale with a steady increase in pressure.

If the session is playing in the general vicinity of JI with a root of D (the D being relative to A 440) flatten the whistle a bit so it takes more pressure to get the D in tune but it doesn’t jump octaves before it is in tune. This makes it easier to flatten the f# and b. This tuning has the added effect of strengthening the D and d while softening the f# and b such that the volume increases and decreases as you go up the scale.

Perhaps most importantly, get to session on time so I can sit where I can hear the folks I am suppose to be matching.

9

As far as hearing oneself over other session/gig participants (which I had a major problem with) I overcame this using a length of thin plastic tube 3mm diameter (we used to call it Scooby-Doo when I was a lad, in the uk), one end attached near the fipple, the other inserted in my ear using a little rubber earpiece attached to the tube. It was originally half of a rider to passenger motorcycle communication system (“Back-Chat”), no electrics, just tubing. It worked in that application and it’s perfect for hearing what your playing, especially when there’s a concertina nearby. It’s visible on my avatar, dangling left.

10

Yes in the key of D the note F# is the Major 3rd and thus should be 14 cents flat according to Just Intonation.

Now let’s switch to the key of G: the note F# is now the Major 7th and should be 12 cents flat.

How about the key of A? F# is the Major 6th and should be 16 cents flat.

Everything is great so far, isn’t it?

But wait!

In the key of E minor the note F# is the Major 2nd and needs to be four cents SHARP!

And in the key of B minor the note F# is the Perfect 5th and needs to be two cents sharp.

The point is, it’s false to take the Just Intonation of one key and apply it to a different key. That’s misunderstanding the entire point of what Just Intonation is. It’s precisely these conundrums that eventually led to the adoption of Equal Temperament, as lousy as ET sounds to somebody who is used to JI.

Now, I freely admit that bagpipes are a special case, due to the drones.

Thus the uilleann pipes, because they have drones all playing the note D, to have each note of the chanter precisely blend with the drones needs to have the chanter tuned to Just Intonation in the key of D, regardless of what key the particular melody is in. So it doesn’t matter that the piper is playing a tune that happens to be in the key of E minor; that F# still needs to be 14 cents flat in order to be an in-tune Major 3rd with the D of the drones.

Fiddles are a different case, because they in effect have four different potential drones, each of the open strings. Happily one of the four is the same D that the uilleann pipes have, and the other three are going to be at most a couple cents off.

Anyhow let’s not forget that tuning is situational: no note is “in tune” in a vacuum, and any note not in a vacuum is “in tune” if it agrees with the surrounding sound.

So an Irish flute with the F# 14 cents flat will be “in tune” when playing along with an uilleann chanter which has its F# tuned 14 cents flat (to match the D drones), but that same flute will be “out of tune” when playing along with a banjo, guitar, mandolin, piano, ET tuned box or accordion, etc.

I think the whole “ET v JI” controversy is overdone. I use my uilleann chanter in non-trad situations far more than I use it in trad situations and I’ve always had to keep in “in tune” to a strict ET scale. Even in trad situations I’m usually playing with a guitarist so the ET sounds better.

11

Well your ear is perfectly fine and probably better than anybody else’s at your session.

You’ve probably played in Just Intonation your whole life, though perhaps not intellectualizing it while playing.

Because if you’re in a small brass ensemble, and the guys around you are playing the root and the 5th, and you’re playing the 3rd, I’m sure you would hit the note a tad on the low side in order to make a clean pure chord. That’s all Just Intonation is. 3rds on guitar and other ET instruments are shockingly sharp to those used to acappella choirs, brass ensembles, etc.

Here’s the fantastic Highland piper Gordon Walker. You can clearly hear the beautiful blend of the chanter with the drones; in particular note the +4 2nd, the -14 3rd, -16 6th, Perfect 4th, Perfect 5th, all exact blends with the higher harmonics produced by the drones (which is all that JI is, after all)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eFOvLBBlKtU

12

I’ve noticed when playing along with Ryan Duns’s videos that most notes are in tune except F#. His F# and mine (off-the-rack Generation and Feadog) are not in tune together.

13

Thanks for the two posts. I always appreciate your posts and these two I actually understood after doing my homework over the last week.

Here is a clip of the instrument that inspired this thread. An eight string National Model D resonator tuned to D A D F# A D E F#. The F#s are tuned down 13 cents to harmonize with the Ds.

http://www.petegrant.com/8-string_sheebeg.html

14

Nice playing there. I like to play Irish tunes on the resonator guitar (and other lap slide guitars). It can sound very harp-like.

15

I play an old Rickenbacker Model B myself (or used to, before I took up the pipes :boggle: ) but it never occurred to me to try Irish tunes on it. Might have to tune it up and try one of these days.

16

Ooooooohhhhh! The elusive Panda! I love those horseshoe pickups. I own/play the metal bodied version of your “Rickenbacher” (as well as a Gibson Ultratone). But I really like the sound of Irish tunes on either a spider bridge resonator tuned to GBDGBD (Dobro G) or a Weissenborn style guitar tuned DADF#AD (open D). The Dobro G tuning seems to work best for me. I have a buddy that is better at the C6 and E9 tunings who also plays some Irish/Scots stuff. We’ve played some whistle/flute and Dobro duets that sound very nice.

Feadoggie