Where does the air go?

Uilleann Pipes
1

Rory Brosnan posted a recent post on his RB efficiency factor https://forums.chiffandfipple.com/t/what-is-the-rb-value-of-your-set/87094/1 I hope more people post their results there. But it revealed another thing that I do not know about the uilleann pipes… Where does the air go when not playing?

If I just put on my practice set, close my chanter holes including bottom D, fill my bag, and put constant lower octave playing pressure on the bag… it stays inflated enough for at least a single note for about 90 seconds. I know that air is probably leaking a tiny bit from my bag, bellows, chanter keys, and fingers. But that amount of time, for me, is great.

Now I try the same thing on my new full set, same as above, drones off, no regulator playing. The Bag gets to insufficient air in about 12 -17 seconds. I have identified a couple of small leaks ( using soapy water one is slow small bubbles and the other is fast big bubbles) that the pipemaker will fix this week (they are fixes that are beyond hemp and wax). Fixing these leaks will improve this time but it is a little hard to believe that kind of leaking can empty the bag that quick.

So here is what I do not know. When you put on bag pressure do the regulator reeds close down providing a relatively leak free path. Or do they stay open. If they stay open then that might explain the big difference between a practice set and a full set.

If they do close down then I have may have more leak searching to do.

Oh and again it would be helpful for beginners like me to see more posts to Rory’s RB factor. My set must leak like a sieve compared to his but my set is very similar to the other poster so far?

2

A full set with drones turned off should be airtight. The reg keys are closed and should not leak any air.

Best check your bindings, keys and spots where stocks are tied in as well as your drone switch. Are should stay in and not go anywhere when you’re not playing (but have the bag filled and under playing pressure obviously).

3

also i suggest checking out your bellows & blowpipe for airtightness, including the check valves & where the gussett joins the clappers. perhaps not with soapy water though :wink: I am guessing its pretty dry where youre at? sometimes leather flapper check valves can become,well…shall we say, “deformed”, , & not seal properly… are you using the same bellows on each set?

4

Thanks I will check the valves. I have two bellows. My older one with the practice set and the new full set one. I will try the swap idea. I am cork poor right now but I have ordered a few that should fit every stock drone and regulator hole. I also got a big one for blocking the cup next to the stock. I get those in a few days. So I should be able to isolate this thing. Mr. Gumbys comment about it should not leak at all leads me to believe I have some leaks. The good news is that leaks can be fixed and then playing should be much easier.

5

I knew a fellow who was playing with a leaky bag, so it’s worth checking, too. The bag in question had poor quality leather, and the air leaked out of the skin itself, it was so porous.

6

Let’s say you’re happy with your practice set and it “feels” leak proof (even though all sets will leak very slightly). With a concertina, we collapse it to nothing then hang it upside down and time how long it takes to open. And they have lots of pads! All concertinas will finally open with the hang test, just like all closed-off pipes will finally collapse with constant elbow pressure.

So, you add a couple potential leak locations as you add drones: where the mainstock is tied, where the shut-off is located inside the mainstock, where the threaded stick goes into the stock, the drone reed seat, and the way the drone reed is made (opens and closes). The reg holes are plugged tight for now. But, with the addition of regulators, you add several more potential leak locations - where each is mounted to the mainstock, where any thread is tied at tube extensions or caps, at the mounts, and where each pad is located. Even where the tuning pins are located. If the pads are tight, the reed seats of the regs won’t be a concern until they are played. And then, the reed seats could be another potential location as could be the reeds themselves while being played.

So, I maintain, if Brad sent them home with you new, in good playable condition, and demonstrated them for you, everything is probably okay, perhaps not perfect. Before I’d suspect anything being terribly wrong, or start trying to tighten joints, etc., take them back, he’s gotta be close by, and see what he says. You’ll go back and forth on the issue of how important a perfectly tight set seems to be.

If they “feel” tight, with everything shut off, including the chanter, but still feel like they leak very slightly, but Brad says they’re okay, you’ll probably have to adjust. I wouldn’t say forget the air test equations (there are lots of variables), but be prepared for some surprised that weren’t mentioned…like oh, your bag is different, your bellows seems like way better than mine, etc., etc., or oh, your set doesn’t feel as tight as my leaky ones–at least to me (how do you play those things?). Been there, done that. :wink:

7

I am learning all the time with this stupid instrument. One thing is that a leaky off tune chanter or set can sound really good with an experienced player. I think a good player unconsciously can manipulate bag pressure to make a set sound good and maybe even use less pressure to play a tune than a beginner. And I have also learned that its a heck of a lot easier for a beginner to learn if he/she has a system that does not leak, is in tune, and changes octaves easily but not too easily.

And… through the miracle of cork stopper isolation I have found all or many of the leaks. Many only Brad can fix and I am seeing him on Thursday for that. I did a partial fix to one of the main leaks with some electrical tape over a glued joint. I got my play of an A on a full bag from 9 seconds to about 25. I bet when Brad fixes the other leaks I will get 30+ seconds and that equates to a lot less pumping and no sore shoulder.

I was surprised to see that very little air escapes through the regs.

8

nano: yeah, I played on a bag like that for years; Couldn’t believe the difference when
I made one from vinyl that was almost airtight. My playing improved out of sight.
Dry weather caused the bag to leak through the leather; this happens gradually so
you won’t notice it until you play one that doesn’t leak so much.

bobkeenan: just like to compliment you on the the thoughtful questions that you ask, and the helpful,
intelligent responses from the rest of the forum. My thanks to all.
Compliments on your blog as well. I second most of Seth’s comments, but have had trouble posting a
reply there (could be my network settings?). But thanks for the blog as well.

donpiper

9

I hope that’s a case of , you always hurt the ones you love.

RORY

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Absolutely!

11

I’ve played that set and it’s more than airtight enough. Preston Howard had a vid on Facebook playing it with regs and all. Preston is a great piper, if any of you outside of Oregon have doubts about my music/qualifications. Full sets leak more than practice sets, there’s more that can go wrong; but this is usually irrelevant unless it’s a huge leak that interferes with playing the chanter/regs, and again, this set doesn’t leak much.

You shouldn’t agonize over every last leak, that’s just a waste of time. Being a beginner you shouldn’t be trying to play the full set in the first place, too. Plug off the bass and baritone drones with blu tack over the exits, and just use the tenor, to get used to the drones. These things take time and practice.

12

Do make sure all your keys are closed! Sometimes a key arm gets out of alignment or somehow “sprung,” even slightly, and mayhem ensues.

Air will get out anywhere it can.

13

one of my leaks (not the major one) is the drone stop.
Should it be pretty much leak tight? If cork all the stock exits and open one drone, then put a finger over it… I can here a little quiet pop and release of air and the bag depletion leaks a bit faster.

14

Could be a drone reed collapsing, too. My bass drone reed does that when seasons change.

Are all your drone reeds seated and sounding properly? And not to state the obvious, but … wouldn’t it make sense to talk to Brad about all this? He could probably get you sorted out a lot faster, maybe even in one swell foop.

15

It just dawned on me… What is “that set” that you are referring to? My set is brand new?

16

I played your set a couple weeks ago at Brad’s, Bob.

Preston playing this set: Trying out Brad Angus’ latest set. - YouTube. Do you see him flapping his arms like crazy trying to keep air in the thing? No? That’s because leakage isn’t an issue with that set. Now that this issue is laid to rest you can go back to practicing.

If I went to the airport, snuck into a plane, somehow managed to take off, crashed, and survived, I wouldn’t go to cessnaforums.com and complain about their design. The crash was because everything I know about piloting planes I’ve learned from flight simulators, i.e. entirely theoretical. Uilleann pipes also require a fair amount of time behind the wheel to get the hang of, no matter how akward it seems at first.

I had to download that video for some reason, can’t watch it in the browser. I listen to those drones buzzing away and think “no way that’s concert pitch.” Practically every other set of CP I hear since Rowsome sounds like some kind of tedious vacuum cleaner.

17

I stand corrected. Brad did say the head of the pipers club had played it but I thought he was referring to the Seattle pipers club. Well, something must have happened since I got the set because Preston had a full bag of air, drones playing, and I think a little regulator work. I could barely keep the bag full with just the chanter going.

As to complaining about to Cessna forums… A bit of a stretch…

A better analogy is that I have been flying a single engine plane for a year and then I get into a multiengine and it keeps pulling to the right. So before I call Cessna I get on the forum and ask… Hey is it normal to pull to the right. If they say no… I call Cessna.


You won’t see anything in any of my posts that is a complaint about Brad. I was trying to figure out what was normal to determine if I had to go back to Brad and be informed enough to tell him to check this that or the other.

And… By taping the suspected leak area I increased the playing of a note from 9 to 27 seconds. Does that sound like a leak I should just live with and get back to practicing. BTW as long as we are talking about cessnas… I was a USAF pilot back in the day … Maybe That is my problem. I am trying to play the pipes like I am flying a B-52.

18

Your story serves to remind beginners of the importance of having a qualified experienced piper around when first trying out the pipes–whether practice set, 1/2 set, or on to a full set. The instrument is complicated enough that even an intelligent person shouldn’t be left alone, at first, to interpret what’s going on or what should be done about it. I could tell you countless stories, including my own, of how trying to learn without guidance could have saved the day, or year. I realize you probably don’t have money left for lessons, but do what you can to get around other pipers…and go about it verrrry slowwwly. Remember, your pipes may never sound this good ever again…depending on misinterpretations and what is thought to be a so-called solution! :slight_smile:

Bravo for taking on an octopus at your age!

PS: I know, I know, you fixed what you think was a major leak, but what if…what if…someone familiar with the pipes would have shrugged it off or fixed it another way. Yep, there could have been another way. Believe me. :wink:

19

Maybe That is my problem. I am trying to play the pipes like I am flying a B-52.

Hmmm. try more like flying a C-17. . . . .low and slow :smiley:


Bob

20

Good on you, Bob Keenan, for being proactive and problem solving! I’m not a piping expert, just a novice to the instrument, strings are my area of expertise (I bet you’d never have guessed :wink: ) I have many instruments brought to my shop with major problems, like bridges bending over or pegs that don’t turn or severe structural damage which all detrementally affect the instrument, and after correcting the problems, it’s interesting the number of people who say ‘wow, I never knew it could sound/perform/etc. better than it had!’. Many people may just resign to accepting an instrument the way it is, and assume a problem is just their own lack of knowledge or that they’re new, but in my experience in string instrument repair and restoration realm, one’s gut instinct that something may be off is usually right. Well done in your observations, asking questions, taking a proactive approach and testing varriables yourself to determine problems, and arranging to have things looked at and taken care of by a professional. Instrument issues rarely if ever just ‘go away’ on their own, and I’m glad you’re able to get this sorted. Don’t take guff from anyone, it sounds to me like you’ve got a good head on your shoulders.

Best of luck in your piping endeavors!