Is there a probation period for an instrument to be accepted into Irish traditional music?
What is an Irish Traditional Instrument??
Food for thought. 
Well, in the broadest sense, I guess an instrument taht plays traditional Irish music.
But then, I wouldn’t consider a tuba or bassoon or harpsichord playing jigs, evne if they were played in a very traditional style, to be a trad instrument. And even if they were awesome. Which they all are.
So I suppose it’d be an instrument that’s been excepted as the norm in traditional settings, to play traditional music. Eg, accordion hasn’t been around as long as a lot of other instruments, but it’s been accepted into the tradition. Whereas the tuba has been around much longer than the accordion, but was never really used to play irish trad music, so it would certainly not be an irish traditional instrument. Harmonica or cello, eg, would be kinda borderline. I think.
Can the guitar, bouzouki or even piano be considered to be IT instruments?
Do we consider that no boundaries exist in reference to instruments which “serve their time!”
If this is the case, then why have instruments such as the guitar/bouzouki (which I think have added to the music) not fully been accepted into the tradition by CCE!!
The Bodhran has it’s own category but if you want to enter a competition with a guitar/ bouzouki it’s either under “accompaniement” or “miscillaneous”
I recall the guitar being banned at one point by CCE!!!
http://www.irishguitar.net/magpie.html
Errr… the CCE has at least one guitar category for fleadhs. I have several friends who have won guitar accompaniment, at least at the Midwest level.
I think you will find the category is “accompaniment” not “guitar accompaniment!”
That category is open to any accompanying instrument but yet the bodhran has it’s own category!
How can you adjudicate between a guitar and piano in the same category??
I dunno about the CCE, how much weight they have in this sorta thing, but hey, we’re talking about tradition, and within a tradition, though organizations are certainly great to guide it, and should be given some measure of authority, they shouldn’t be seen as governing it. Looking at the numbers of sessions and trad bands that use them, tell me guitar and bouzouki haven’t been accepted into ITM
Humph. A wonderful cellist called Caroline Lavelle came to our session a few times and could play tunes like Carolan’s Concerto, and plenty more, peerlessly. So. And I won’t say any more about harmonicas at sessions as it’s been raised recently in the squeezebox forum, q.v. I’m not going to listen to ITM in a session or elsewhere and judge the suitability of the instruments used. I prefer to judge how well the music is being served.
You’re right about the first part (though I don’t think I’ve ever heard of anyone entering it on piano in the US!) but wrong on the first half of the second:
Looking over the rules again, there actually is a solo (ie melody) piano competition, too. I presume guitar and bouzouki would be eligable to compete under “Miscellaneous”.
Anyway, the point here is that the CCE has clearly acknowledged that guitar and piano have a place in the tradition, even if it might be a limited place in the case of guitar. For what (little) that is worth.
It is a folk tradition. There are no rule books. Whatever is accepted by present company is what is accepted. You will still find people who balk at guitars, zouks, pianos, banjos, etc. Squeezeboxes of any kind are still unacceptable in some gatherings. (We won’t even mention harmonicas 
).
Same for percussion. There are those who refuse to accept the bodhrán, even though there are Irish recordings of it being included in ensembles as far back as the 1920s.
There is plenty of room for snootiness in ITM, and no-one employs this more than the Irish themselves, from what I am told. Groups like CCÉ are more oriented to preserving the language, music and dance by teaching kids. They are not the trad police. Some groups of people in Ireland are open to anything. Others are not. Out here in the hinterlands (anywhere outside of Ireland) some groups of people seem to be not quite so fussy of what tunes they play, what style they play those tunes in, or what instruments are used to play those tunes on, and yet they still call it ITM.
djm
the probation period is shorter than that applied to those who ask for it.
I agree!
There is plenty of room for snootiness in ITM, and no-one employs this more than the Irish themselves, from what I am told.
I disagree! There are musicians who take themselves far too seriously in Ireland just like anywhere, but the deeply respected tradition of knocking one another down a peg in Ireland seems to ensure these people are in the minority.
Groups like CCÉ are more oriented to preserving the language, music and dance by teaching kids. They are not the > trad police> .
I agree again! I didn’t meet any grown-up musicians in Ireland who gave a toss about what CCE says, including one who was acting as chaperone for a large group of CCE kids on a field trip. In fact, a friend of mine (the irish co-host of the session in the pub where I worked) sometimes recited a hilarious poem he’d written about them - I wish I had thought to write it down.
Some groups of people in Ireland are open to anything. Others are not. Out here in the hinterlands (anywhere outside of Ireland) some groups of people seem to be not quite so fussy of what tunes they play, what style they play those tunes in, or what instruments are used to play those tunes on, and yet they still > call > it ITM.
It probably depends a lot on where you are. As a general rule - and one I’ve just now made up - the bigger and more diverse the city, the higher the likelihood a bunch of people who take themselves too seriously will band together and declare themselves the “ITM experts” to the exclusion of all others. I saw behavior (ie. snobbery) in Dublin that would have been considered an abonimation in Ennis or Belfast, and run into attitudes in Montreal and Toronto I never encountered out West, or in Ireland (with the exception of Dublin).
The “attitudes” a person encounters might have to do with this person’s own attitude. There are different ways to try to fit in a group, you can try to push your way through, or go slowly and gradually. If you choose to push your way through, especially when you’re a beginner musician, it’s normal to expect some resistance, wherever you are on the planet.
By the way I would also suggest you spend more time in Ireland because I’ve been many times to Ennis, for example, and there is a lot of politics and groups of musicians, egos involved etc, but you usually have to spend some time and be sensitive to your environment to realize these things.
Yes there are, if you’re into that sort of thing, and I sincerely wish you the best of luck.
By the way I would also suggest you spend more time in Ireland because I’ve been many times to Ennis, for example, and there is a lot of politics and groups of musicians, egos involved etc, but you usually have to spend some time and be sensitive to your environment to realize these things.
The alternative (and obvious) explanation for why we have different impressions of Ireland is; when you were in Ennis, you met and played with different musicians than the ones I met and played with.
A pissing contest of who’s racked up more hours in Ireland than who doesn’t interest me. Besides, I would probably win, so you’re wasting your time. 
As a footnote, since I may have given the impression I’m dissing Montreal, or big cities, I’ve also met excellent, warm, friendly, creative and open-minded people at sessions here and in Toronto.
The point I meant to make was that you get all kinds, wherever you go. In a smaller town with fewer musicians to start with there is a greater likelihood of all the different “types” getting along, because they have no choice. In bigger cities people tend to sort themselves into sub-groups, and that’s exactly as it should be, imo. Without that self-classification big city sessions tend to collapse and / or fester with resentment.
Just to follow up on FoV’s and Az’s comments (and to drag this topic out for a slow, miserable death) I would guess that it would depend on one’s own tastes and expectations, as well. If your personal interpretation of ITM says that Michael Flatley is the tops, then you would likely gel better with like-minded individuals. If, on the other hand, you are convinced that synthesizers are mandatory in all forms of “Celtic” music, then that’s the sort of people you should seek out. If you run across other musicians who do not share your tastes, you might very well need to start a thread on C&F about how misunderstood you are.
djm
I think you have hit the nail right on the head. I’m a cocky and confident sod in my own native setting, but when I’m in a session where I’m not known it’s as much as I can do to just let people know I’m there and that I have harmonicas in my pocket. I wouldn’t dream of trying to play uninvited. The upshot of this approach is that I always get to play. And I never noodle. I’ve never met any anti-harmonica prejudice. I join in on tunes I know I can play properly. I desperately want to play ITM on the harmonica, but I desperately do not want to show everyone what a spiffin’ instrument the harmonica is. That’s got nowt to do with it. I don’t do inferiority complexes that way, and it serves me well enough!
Or, they may have been the same musicians behaving differently
depending on who was around.
Well, I thought of that myself but I didn’t want to add more fuel to the flames. 
Truly, Ennis is a small town.
By the way, this is the second time you’ve used this particular silly little backhanded insult on me in under a week, and I have a word of advice for you relating to it:
Don’t confuse the sensation of being ignored with the sensation of not having been noticed.
(Sorry, folks, carry on.)
Maybe its some sort of harmless incantation. I remember I used to say “please consider” a lot at the end of my posts and the mantra upset people and someone pulled me up on it (I can’t quite recall who that was now ).
I mean what could be more harmless than “please consider”? But there you go, musicians are pretty sensitive to excessive repetitions. Some lines are even excessive the second time round.
Often, the tradition will be the arbiter of which repetitions are acceptable and which aren’t.