What does a REAL irish flute look like?

sigh “Irish Flute”

That is the correct response when there’s a room full of non-musicians and one of them asks you what one of those things in the corner of the room are called.

It saves the wife from interrupting your dissertation on the evolution of the traverse flute. The guests will think that they know something, and it saves them from going all glassy eyed.

The glassy eyed bit usually happens long before ya get ta say Baroque and it saves the guests from wondering why you’ve collected so many broken things.


There, sorted? :really:


Oh, unless yer trying to off the stick on e-bay…then it IS an Irish Flute.

@ Gordon - I don’t think I said what you said I said… I haven’t gone back to check, but what I certainly said initially was that there was “no such thing” and pretty much left it at that. I subsequently agreed with others who set out the historical perspective and processes which were the basis of my bald statement. I do not think that keyed flutes are “the definition” of the concept of an “Irish flute”. I do not, still, think there is really any such thing, notwithstanding the modern (post 1970) retro-development of keyless diatonic flutes more-or-less specifically for ITM uses. I have written about this previously.

My current opinion is that such keyless flutes, initially developed as cheap (and maybe better in tune for modern standards, though lacking keys, that is difficult if not impossible to achieve!) alternatives to expensive, scarce or otherwise unsatisfactory period keyed flutes, reflecting basic economics, developing skills of emerging makers and, yes, the relatively small need for chromaticism in ITM. Regardless of what flutes in what condition the “old geezers” may have played and in what style/with what techniques, I think that since such keyless flutes became a significant proportion of the flutes in use a modern playing style both based upon exploring and limited by them has developed to a considerable extent in the last 15 years or so. Sure, this reflects in many ways how the old geezers played who actually denuded their antique flutes of keys for whatever reasons (not working, lost, fat fingers, etc etc.) or who simply ignored the keys, but I think it has gone beyond that. I also think that there has developed a rather Luddite attitude in some quarters that perhaps seeks to ignore or deny the actual historic origins (so far as we can determine them) of the use of the flute in ITM and the actual instruments predominantly used pre c 1980, almost rejecting the use of keys as “un-Irish”!

Bottom line? IMO there’s no such thing as an “Irish Flute” or “Celtic Flute”, “real” or otherwise, in sensibly used typological terms. (Of course a flute physically made in Ireland is Irish, even if it’s a Bohm flute!) The term is out there, market dominant and we have to live with it, but we don’t have to like or accept it. I certainly object to both antique keyed, conoid-bodied, wooden flutes and modern replicas of them being called “Irish” - they are correctly termed Simple System flutes. Modern retro keyless flutes whose design is derived from the bodies of those mid-C19th Simple System classical flutes are… what they are. I think of 'em as “naked flutes”! :wink: We play Irish (and other trad) music on these flutes, and they may be especially well suited to it in a circular feedback stylistic process (and that is an analysis, not a derogatory comment). The instruments themselves, even if made in Ireland, are not typologically Irish - or at least, no more so than Bohm flutes made in early C20th England to suit the demands of the then English aesthetic were “English” and the French or American ones made for slightly different aesthetics “belonged” to those nationalities - they were still Bohm Flutes. The same could be said about national styles of Simple System flutes. These modern keyless ones are just flutes, part of the broad spectrum of the Western transverse flute family, in a particular form at a particular time, for a particular market. In this case that market may be primarily one of ITM players, but it certainly isn’t exclusively so, nor is it limited to Ireland or the diaspora of the Irish.

Any flute used to play ITM in a tolerably convincingly tradition-reflecting style will serve if the player knows what they are trying to achieve and how to achieve it on that particular instrument.

I also disagree that I play my 8-key flutes in a C/classical way - I do occasionally play bits of Baroque and Classical music on them, most “inauthentically”, but not with proper, fully developed classical flute technique - I have not the training nor have I done the hard work for that. I am primarily a traddie. Not, I fully acknowledge, one brought up in the living tradition or with a distinct or recognisable Irish regional style - I equally lack the background for that; but most of my influences are authentic trad and I use chiefly trad techniques in my playing, though I do also bring in bits from my knowledge of other approaches and from my technical understanding of the instrument - no more so, and indeed probably less, than a good many players at the forefront of modern ITM fluting.

Yep. Don’t think we’re in disagreement at all.

Didn’t mean to bring you up as a personal attack, Jem; if it read that way, I apologize. When I posted, I believed (didn’t go back to check, either) that it had been you that described what the OP called a REAL Irish flute as being fully keyed. My defense of the keyless had more to do with the non-initiateds’ view of the so-called Irish flute, and - in some quarters - the assertion that real trad players only use keylesses. Which is nonsense.

BTW - I’ve looked back; it was Cubitt who made the statement, not you.

No matter - I think most of us are in agreement that there really is no such thing as a definable Irish flute, nor should there be. Except, perhaps, Cubitt… :smiling_imp:

I’m with Arbo - let’s get off this thread!

No. I didn’t take it as a personal attack, but I didn’t want to leave a mild misrepresentation on the public record unchallenged. Plus this time I had time for a fuller statement anyway. Ben put the gist of my argument much more succinctly, of course.

Agreement agreed.

I call the flutes that I make “Irish flutes”, even though they are made from plumbing pipe. In the 15 years that I have been making flutes no one has ever said to me, “Those are not Irish flutes”, so I’ve gotten away with it so far. But I agree with what others have said, that there isn’t such a thing as an Irish flute. However, if I were to start advertising my flutes as “Doug’s Simple-System Flutes”, I’m sure that I would soon get tired of trying to explain to people what a simple-system flute is, and the search engines would not be kind to me, I afraid. It’s easier to just call them Irish flutes and be done with it.

Aye, Doug - as someone commented up thread, if you want to sell stuff, it’s the best tag. Mind you, your flutes aren’t “simple system” either - that term used properly implies being fitted with (4+) keys, else it isn’t a “system” - even with one key, no-one applies the term “system” to the Baroque flute, nor even the Classical era flute with 4 keys. Historically the term “system” has only ever been applied to flutes with mechanical additions to the plain keyless or one key tube of the basic instrument. It only really came into use when the mid C19th developments of Bohm and others introduced a plethora of mechanically more complicated flutes/systems, with “simple” as a convenient back-reference. They also used “ordinary flute” to denote the 5-8-key simple system of individual, unlinked, closed-standing keys. Yours are probably best described as “simple diatonic flutes”.

did someone? :stuck_out_tongue:

Did Someone say something? Actually? :smiling_imp:

And we’re not checking back in this thread, if you check back…

perhaps a web based reading retention course? :thumbsup:

Reading retention? :boggle: :confused: :boggle: :confused: :boggle:

Let me ask you, who wants to play a simple ordinary diatonic flute? If someone were to ask you if you played an instrument, you would have to answer, “Yes, I play a simple ordinary diatonic flute”. They would undoubtedly have to ask back, “What’s that?” Then, I would have to give my standard reply that I memorized verbatim from Jemtheflute, and the questioner would still not understand. No way.

With regards to shipping, if you put “Irish flute” on the customs label, there will be no questions asked, even though there isn’t such a thing. What matters is perception in that people think that they know what an Irish flute is. However, if I were to write “Ordinary diatonic flute” on the label, customs would probably open the package just to see what it was. I mailed a flute to the Czech Republic today. It went with the title “plastic Irish flute” with a low declared value. I’m keeping my fingers crossed that it will get there before Christmas.

illusion is everything…if ya can allude to an illusion, so much the better!


I rewrote that just fer you Jem…

:astonished: Doug, the bad news is that Franz Kafka worked for the Czech Post Office. :astonished:

Bob :poke:

Very effective, if a trifle affected on your part.

said it was for you, didn’t I? :smiley:

And what, pray you, does a REAL simple diatonic flute look like?
Does it look like a simple bansuri or a dizi or one of the many “real” and “unreal” keyless Irish flutes or a Rennaissance flute?

And, what does a REAL definition of these things look like and is it beautiful?

And, if I do obtain a REAL diatonic flute will it guarantee that no one will ever think that it is a chromatic flute and thereby scar its perceived beauty for life?
:confused:

“Hey, man, this is, like, unREAL…” - or something very similar said by Dylan the Rabbit on The Magic Roundabout

Okay, so if I play an unreal Irish flute, but I play it in a realistically Irish style, will it disappear?

I’ve been trolling eBay for a REAL Gallifreyan flute. The kind that is bigger on the inside than it is on the outside.

I could fit Malloy’s Space Flute inside one of those, no problem…I wonder if I could play harmonies?..Well, Matt probably could.