Variations in Metzler scaling

Irish Flute
1

Since compiling the “changes in flute scaling” page, I’ve been keeping an eye out for variations in other makers’ flutes. I’ve been repairing a Metzler flute and thought to compare it to my own. Mine is more ornate, has engraved sterling silver rings and keys, and looks older; it has a c#d# length of 251.5mm. The one under repair is simpler and more modern in appearance, and is in nickel silver; it has a c#d# length of 246mm. I haven’t added it to the graph because, as Metzler didn’t employ serial numbers or addresses in his mark, I have no way of estimating the dates. But it’s interesting to visualise them on the graph:

There is no evidence of the flute having been shortened, and the reduction of length occurs gradually along the flute, not in any one section.

As you can see, 246mm is pretty short, leading me to wonder if it was intended to be a High Pitch flute. Certainly, the slide has to be out about 20mm for A440, but then again, so does the older one. If it were a High Pitch flute, the low notes, e.g. D, should be higher in pitch than the top of tube notes, such as B, when playing A440. But not so, indeed, there’s still some flat foot evident, although more in the order of 20 cents rather than the older flute’s 40 cents. And yet, set for High Pitch, the octave relationships seem better. So we are seeing a familiar pattern, not all of the possible pitch indicators agree on any particular pitch.

Perhaps we’re still seeing the need for any particular flute to work over the range low pitch to high pitch, but with high pitch being seen as more critical? More thinking still needed.

Terry

2

I have one and have access to another Metzler - visually very similar, but with different lengths. I’ll try to get measurements from my friend’s longer scaled one.

3

Hi all,

I haven’t been active in the flute world during the past 12 years (basically the internet age), so I am not up to date on recent scholarship. And I don’t even have any of my out-of-date references here with me in Wisconsin where I’m living this year. However, I remember having and selling 2 distinct kinds of 8-key “Metzlers.” 1) Earlier flutes that I thought were ca. 1820s, possibly by Valentin Metzler, with dark wood resembling ebony, sterling silver rings and keys (some with pointed touches), with salt-spoon cups for the low C# and C pads, and in low pitch (best internal intonation around A 432 - 435 but workable at higher pitches with more effort). 2) Later flutes in lighter cocus, nickel keys, metal-bushed finger holes, keys sometimes marked “A.L.” (for Liddle?), and with their pitch centered around A 452. I think I sold at least a couple of each type when I had a little shop and teaching studio in the Boston area, and I may still have one of the latter type in storage. Doubtless there were also many other variations of Metzlers that I haven’t come across. I think the Shoreys illustrated a Valentin Metzler flute of the first type in one of their printed catalogues from the 1990s.

PG

edited to add: Terry, I just searched and found a photo of your 8 key Metzler with engraved rings. Sure enough, that is a type I have not seen. Just guessing, but I would speculate that yours would have been made later than the V. Metzlers of the type I mentioned, but earlier than the late Metzler Co type I mentioned. Interesting that yours has A.L. marked under the keys, I’m sure the early V. Metzlers with sterling keys that I saw didn’t have those initials.

4

Thanks Jem and Paul. It would be good to see if they fall into two camps, like the long and short Hudsons, or form part of a spectrum, like Siccama and Rudalls. The Liddle-mark is interesting too; I should have mentioned that both of the Metzlers here are marked A.L. This is my Metzler:

Also pleased to hear from any other Metzler owners! C#-d# length and underkey markings?

Terry

5

Jon C. currently has mine so he’ll have to give you the measurements. It’s got all the metal do-dads on the tone holes and a lip plate to boot. Keys are GS. I can’t recall if the keys were marked. It’s certainly not happy at 440.

6

Thanks Aanvil. The one I’m repairing also has the fingerhole rings and full circle lip plate.

Jon, it would be good to see what Aanvil’s flute has in the way of c#d# and keymarkings. The long F key is an easiest place to look; both of these are marked just where the key leaves the end of the RH section, visible without pulling the key off.

Terry

7

Pending other material, this is on eBay currently… you could try getting more info out of the vendor (good luck with that! :wink:)

Re: my friend’s Metzler, I don’t yet have measurements, but I have access to some (bad!) photos I took when restoring it (BTW, he bought it from the late Paul Davies) and it has 5 of the keys with AL stamps - clearly on the long C and long F, less so on the Eb, G# and Bb. It is of the bright, red, figured-grain cocus with GS fittings, embouchure ring-plate, bushed tone-hole type, as is the one I have.

Mine has four AL stamped keys - the long C, the E, Bb (I think) and the low C#. I’ve just remembered it’s out on loan to another friend to try out, so getting more info may take a while… but I think I included its dimensions in the stuff I posted in the earlier thread??? Ah, yes, I did, plus another much more recent (I think) pillar-mounted one I acquired recently. Here they are again for convenience (NB It appears I posted the measurements of the one against the address of the other in that other thread - ooops! Correct here.):

Key: OL = Overall Length; SL = Sounding Length; Em-BE = centre of embouchure to lower end of barrel, slide closed; the rest should be obvious - hole-centre to hole-centre. The last three columns are: GHz = Hz reading for G with slide closed; G-SE = Slide Extension to obtain a G tuned to 392Hz (A=440); HS= (subjective) Hole Size, where S = small (very small, like French style), SM = Small Medium (R&R smaller style), LM = Large Medium (R&R larger style) and L = Large (Pratten style).

Maker                Address                    OL   SL   Em-BE Em-C# C#-E C#-Eb Eb-end GHz G-SE HS
Metzler & Co.       37 Great Marlborough St.   660   569   155   214  194   249   106   408  15   L
Metzler             London                     671   590   158   219  197   258   113   398   6  SM

The small-holed Metzler London one has features suggestive of French craftsmanship - e.g. through-rivetted steel springs and longer points of the key-arms over the cups, small tone-hole and embouchure hole, pillar mounts, screw-in steel pivots, etc. I can’t see any key stamps, but haven’t dismantled it or stripped of buffer corks etc. to investigate - but they don’t look like Liddle keys at all.

Which thought raises an angle for your consideration, Terry. Do you want to include flutes with Liddle key stamps which aren’t Metzlers?

P.S. Oooh, PHM also has this listed at the moment - over-priced as usual, but if it is (as it seems to me from the picture to appear to be) conoid bored, it should play OK at 440. Of course, if it is cylinder bore, it will be seriously HP with that SL (575mm)!

8

Oh, and there was this one (discussed briefly in another thread, I seem to recall), also from PHM on eBay recently - no C#-Eb length, but OL and SL - long/LP SL as befits its style/probable period!

9

Aha, I find I can answer my own question. I’d overlooked another Metlzer flute on the premises, languishing near the bottom of my repairs cupboard. That’s the cupboard marked “Abandon Hope All Ye Who Enter Here”!

(Actually, not so! The strategy to close my order books is starting to bite, and I’m actually getting through the backlog of repairs and odd jobs. And in my lifetime, too.)

Anyway, this Metzler & Co has a C#D# length of 249mm, same as one Jem reported, nicely placed between mine at 251.5 and the other repair flute at 246mm. All with A.L under the keys.

So, we can definitely say with confidence that Metzler & Co (or perhaps Liddle) were also in the business of shortening their flutes as we saw with the more up-market makers.

And that’s without going as far back as the Metzler (not & Co) flutes Paul spoke of above, which we can definitely expect to be much longer. Indeed, we see that in Jem’s data, a plain Metzler (i.e. pre 1833) with 258mm.

Terry

10

Now, this Metzler stuff is getting interesting enough to warrant looking into further. I’ve knocked up two pages to anchor our investigations…

The first, at least in the first instance, is based on NLI information about the Metzler family and company development. We can inject in further information we glean from the flutes or other sources.

http://www.mcgee-flutes.com/Metzler.htm

The second pulls together various images that have been floating around, to try to give us some feeling for the development of Metzler flutes over the century.

http://www.mcgee-flutes.com/Metzler_Flutes.htm

I’ll be pleased to hear from owners of Metzlers that don’t fall into the patterns illustrated.

Terry

11

Terry, I don’t think that small holed “plain Metzler” I have is early at all. I think it is French or French-craftsman-made and late - it has through-rivetted steel springs, screw-in steel pivots, other features which really are not early C19th (in an English context) IMO… I’m away from home at present (visiting my parents in Spain for a few days), but will add it to the “photos needed” list to do with the other two when the opportunity arises.

12

OK, sounds interesting. I’ll look forward to seeing an image!

And can you confirm it’s plain “Metzler”, not “& Co”? Wouldn’t that tend to suggest pre 1833?

Terry

13

And sorry, I didn’t get back to you about this:

I think it is high time we tried to pin down the Liddle matter. It would be good to hear from people with Liddle flutes, or flutes with keys marked Liddle to see if we can crack the question did he make all these flutes, or just their keys.

We have a bit of info at:

http://www.mcgee-flutes.com/Keymarks.htm

Essentially, Metzler, Butler and Moon flutes have been reported with A.L marked keys. Are there more?

Terry

14

Well, I’m in Spain and it is in Wales… but I’m pretty sure I’d have transcribed exactly what is stamped - it just says “Metzler London”. And I don’t place too much faith in Langwill (fantastic resource, but only has what it has… it isn’t definitive) or the consistency of these old firms’ stamping policies.

As for AL stamps, again, all my records and flutes are at home where I am not, but I know I’ve seen/handled Liddle keys on anonymous flutes - cf https://forums.chiffandfipple.com/t/key-stamps-on-antique-english-flutes-survey-request/65194/1 I suspect I may have more in my “in box”.

Just doing some more old thread searching around this - you may wish to follow these up, Terry:
https://forums.chiffandfipple.com/t/anymous-metzler-ebay-flute/71819/1
https://forums.chiffandfipple.com/t/metzler-flute-short-foot/67678/1

Also, I saw in another thread one of my searches turned up that Jon C once appears to have implied he’d had an actual Liddle flute - not sure if he meant the flute was stamped Liddle or just the usual AL keys…

15

I have an eb bandflute marked GJ Good, London
with AL marks. It looks an awful lot like a friends six key Metzler.
I assume Good was a dealer.

I have a left handed Bflat band flute marked Metzler and Co , and an address Marlborough I think ,with the marks as well.

And I recently traded another anonymous pin mounted embouchre banded with AL marks
Seen here
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jTGcfQj9F3c

The crown on the Bflat and anonymous are the same design, the crown on the efalt is missing but it has the same rings as the bflat.

By the time these flutes came along perhaps Metzler was more of a dealer and not everything was made in house or they supllied dealers?

I think the first time I’d heard of the al stamp was from Ciaran Carson in his book where he reports it on a Goulding and D almaine.

Maybe more evidence that Liddle only supplied the keys?

How do we know AL stands for Liddle at all?

16

Hmmm, Spain to Wales doesn’t look much further than Sydney to Melbourne!

I will be interested to see what it actually says. I agree that Langwill is only the start, not the end. There was talk at EUCHMI of doing a project to update the NLI and get it on-line, but I haven’t heard anything recently.

I followed up those links you supplied, and added what I could to my Marks page:

http://www.mcgee-flutes.com/Keymarks.htm

Note I’ve snitched your H&I image, let me know if that’s a problem and I’ll unsnitch it. It seems to me we need all the stuff in one place if we are ever going to be able to make sense of it.

Also, I saw in another thread one of my searches turned up that Jon C once appears to have implied he’d had an actual Liddle flute - not sure if he meant the flute was stamped Liddle or just the usual AL keys…

Certainly it would be good to hear from Jon on this or anyone who has a flute marked Liddle!

Enjoy the tapas and vino rojo (I know I would)! Avoid bulls with lances sticking out of them and keep tilting at windmills to within World Health Organisation Recommended Maximum Daily Limits. Hear from you when you get back!

Terry

17

Thanks for that dunnp, I’ve added the Good and the Metzler to the marks page. I think Good was a dealer - certainly no mention in NLI. I think the evidence might be suggesting that Metzlers might have been dealers all or most of the way too. But let’s see how the story unfolds as we get more info.

Interesting. Anyone got the book? It seems odd - G & D’ were listed to 1834, and AL after 1847.

Maybe more evidence that Liddle only supplied the keys?

How do we know AL stands for Liddle at all?

The NLI reports the mark associated with Liddle but doesn’t go into detail. There’s a Liddle flute in the DCM but no mention of marks under keys or anything useful like that. George Howarth (which let to Howarth the oboe makers) worked for Liddle.

I think we need to start pulling all the available Liddle information together onto a special Liddle page - that often has the effect of bringing more info out of the woodwork, and allowing us to see connections we might otherwise miss.

Terry

18

No prob at all, Terry.

FWIW, southern Spain (Malaga airport) to N Wales (Liverpool airport) is a c 3hr flight - and an hour or so’s car travel each end. It’s about 1,120 miles or 1,800 kilometers as the crow flies from my parents home to mine.

19

Thanks, Jem.

On the Liddle front, I’ve created a new page so we can start gathering stuff there. Some interesting stuff already:

http://www.mcgee-flutes.com/Liddle.htm

I’ll start a new thread so these don’t get too entangled.

Terry

20

Now, back to the Metzler front, can I draw everyone’s attention to the shape of the Long F key on the last two Metzler Siccama flutes on:

http://www.mcgee-flutes.com/Metzler_Flutes.htm

Here’s one of them:

Note how the spring comes in straight from after the bend rather than bending down from before it as on earlier flutes. Where have we seen that style before? Perhaps on a Hawkes or similar later flute?

Terry