Used Whistle Prices and other ITM flutes

Whistle
1

I play lots of different flutes from many traditions. Which means as a buyer, it takes time for me to watch a market, understand who the best makers are, and general sense of pricing in both the new and used markets. And in some of these markets, you end up experimenting and finding out for yourself.

There is something I’ve been observing that seems unique to the ITM whistle and other flute markets. And that is sellers of used flutes don’t believe their flutes depreciate much once it is out of the hands of the maker or the retail stores. Often I see flutes put up for sale with only a small fraction taken off 10% or less. Often it is for flutes that are from makers with waiting list. I assume the seller is thinking because these whistles are hard to come by I can sell it with a minimum of loss. Since I don’t window shop everyday, (only when I’m looking for something) I can’t tell if the market tolerates this sort of price scheme or these flutes end up running their life span without any takers.

I am willing to pay premium prices for premium flutes. I never held back when I could afford it. And I’ve sold plenty of nice flutes but I don’t think I’ve ever sold a flute, even in great condition, for anything less than 20 to 25% lower than the original retail price. AS a buyer, I value making connections with the makers. I like the idea if there is something wrong or not to my liking I can return or exchange the flute. I like we can discuss my needs and establish a relationship for future purchases. I like that they are known within a community and have a stake in maintaining a good reputation in the community or else they know somebody is going to post comments that could effect their business. From a used seller, it’s an unknown quantity. They want to get rid of their flutes and most don’t want to entertain a return if it’s necessary. I am the type of person that never returns flutes. I like flute more than money. But it happens sometimes you get a flute that doesn’t stand up to the promises. I had one maker, who happens to make Irish flutes too, send me an unsanded flute with some small splinters hanging out of the finger holes. Don’t do that! I know some makers have an absolute no return policy. I don’t mind that if the person is well established because I know I am buying into a known factor by a reputable maker. He makes what he makes.

Suffice to say, I’m willing to wait on a flute unless a used flute shows up that represents a good deal. I’m not even remotely interested in buying a flute with only a few percent discount offered because otherwise I’d have to wait. There are always other options and other makers. Unlike some of the other flute categories, I participate in, the Irish whistle and flute area has many options.

So my question is basically, am I seeing this trend correctly? Are people really chomping at the bit to get a whistle from a maker that they’d have to wait a year and willing to pay close to retail?

I’m also wondering if there is a bit of Tulip Mania in the whistle category that pushes demand up when the whistles might be good but priced so far above the average market. I’ll tell you why I ask that. Since ITM flutes are not my primary flute nor my colleagues, we sit around trying different things. I took two Low D whistles. One a wooden one that doesn’t seem to sell well, and a very popular aluminum one which is in demand. I guess I could trade it right away because every so often I see WTB. The non-Irish players I have had test them always prefer the less popular one than the Irish ones. I’ve seen tulip mania in some of the other flute categories too. People paying in ordinate amount of money simply because of a makers name. Does ITM area have this going on too?

2

They’re more like houses than cars; people want to sell them for at least what they paid for them.
shrug I’ve not bought used yet, I don’t think. I’m entertaining buying a couple of uilleann chanters used. I think I see a similar trend there.

3

I’ve bought and sold probably around 10-20 whistles and flutes. Your observations are pretty accurate from my experience, but from what I’ve seen, used ITM instruments usually only hold their full value if the maker has years+ waiting list, a closed waiting list, or was well reputed and no longer makes instruments. Otherwise, you can expect the instrument to sell for at least 10-20% under original price, depending on the age and condition.

Some makers do have good reputations and charge more for their instruments. It seems like most of the makers I have encountered with higher prices also tend to make really great instruments. The same situation exists for other types of instruments as well (guitars, mandos, ukes, etc.).

Like you mentioned, choosing an instrument is largely about personal preference. There are a ton of variations between different whistles/flutes/pipes, and there are often good playing instruments at all price points. A cool aspect of whistles and flutes is that there are a number of makers selling reasonably prices instruments that play well.

4

I’ll give you $200 for your Grinter.

5

Is it possible that you are not viewing things from within the ITM tradition then. It’s easy to see all markets as commodity markets when viewed from the outside of that market. But finer points may be understood and valued differently by those within or closer to the business of that market. The foolishness of the Dutch tulip market came about because of those outside of the market wanting to get in but not understanding it at all well.

As it has always been in my lifetime, there are affordable instruments available to play the music.

I have no problem finding good deals on the instruments I want to own and play. But then again Irish music and Irish flutes and whistles are primary for me. I’ve been in the market for some time now. I’ve bought and sold more flutes and whistles than I can remember.

Feadoggie

6

I see you are surveying the difference between commodities and crafted artifacts.

Bob

7

Then I guess I am asking what are those finer points that I may have missed from reading these forums front to back, and viewing dozens of video reviews, and talking to some musicians who do well with professional careers with modest instruments that seem to feel that they play as good as instruments that are twice the price ?

I don’t know much about the string instrument markets mentioned, but flute markets across the spectrum I have payed close attention and I too able to get flutes from far away lands that most people never even venture into because it’s just too hard to access. Language, distance etc… Doesn’t seem like the case with Irish flutes where you have many American and European makers that are easily accessed, multiple blogs with Irish players talking flutes night and day, and secondary markets including classifieds, retail stores etc… Might be the easiest market in the category of “world” flutes to get something.


My reference to tulip mania was actually referring to two different flute makers, in different traditions, where after their death, prices sky rocketed. Two hundred dollar flutes for thousands. Essentially, they have become collector items because the flutes, while good, and sometimes not so good, do not play that much better. A lot of it’s perception and touching a flute made by a great maker. Something about death that can lift a persons reputation. I’m just asking if anybody feels that phenomena has touched the ITM world. Brand names are not necessary to mention.

When you say good deals on instruments, can I assume you are not referring to the types of deals I see in the classified. $300.00 flute that’s three years old for $285.00. (just making them up but a lot of similar type sales)

Because I certainly don’t find those to be good deals, and I’m sure if you’re immersed in this area, I’d hope you could find better deals. It is most certainly the narrowest margin between new and used instruments that I’ve ever seen. Again, I don’t mind paying the 3 bills for what I want but at that price difference, I’d rather deal with a maker and wait it out or play an alternative.

And yes, I am not so close to ITM flute world at this point where I have to have any specific makers. I’m obviously curious to play a Copeland but if I don’t, I’ll live. I hope that doesn’t come across as sacrilegious.

Because I had to spend so much time learning about makers, finding flutes, working with makers, I want to skip to the chase with the ITM world. IT’s time for me to upgrade my whistle collection and honestly don’t want to spend my time browsing classifieds and ebay everyday because I’m working musician and my time better spend practicing.

8

Well, that part is fairly easy actually. I’ll offer two observations from what you’ve said there. First observation: Players that do well with modest instruments abound in all musical genres. It’s not about the instrument. It’s about the music. Those players live their music (and some benefit from having been born into that music - multi-generational music DNA type of thing).

And the second observation might be this. What you decribe there as your knowledge base might be called anecdotal history. It’s good data but it is “after the fact” in a sense. If you are out in the trenches, you hear the buzz as it is happening. Then you enter the market before or as it begins to rise instead of having to buy afterwards in secondary markets. Buy low, sell high.

Right. Classifieds here or sales from Internet “Previously Owned” dealers don’t necessarily represent the entire market. Both are a good place to aggregate sales directed at this community of buyers though. If you get out and play the music you will likely come across more instruments being sold and/or traded. Local prices between players might differ considerably from those posted on some web based sales outlets.

Right, the world goes on in any case. I have my Copeland whistles and I play a Copeland flute too. I own and play instruments from many other makers as well. But I’m from Philly. Michael was a local maker. We liked him and what he made. So we bought what we could when we could. Haven’t run into him in a few years now. But yeah, prices for his whistles can be, relatively speaking, high sometimes. New Copeland whistles are few and far between. Copeland flutes go both ways, some are offered at high-ish prices while a few I’ve seen offered lately I would judge as bargains. And of course, high and low are relative terms.

Well, they do say that an artist has to die to be recognized or make any money. But really I think you may be looking at the market from a different angle than I am.

While brand names need not be mentioned, I’d expect that instrument sellers have their logic for setting prices the way they do. Buyers each have their own logic for willingness to pay. If the two can come to terms, they tango. Nothing new.

Feadoggie

9

It’s probably also useful to distinguish between the ‘ITM world’ that you observe on forums like this, which participants largely based all over the world and mostly a long way from Ireland, and the traditional music circles as they exist on the island of Ireland. To get a fuller, and perhaps more realistic, picture you will perhaps need to look at and understand both. I would suggest players in Ireland rely on many sources for their instruments that are outside the field of vision of the interweb.

I’m also wondering if there is a bit of Tulip Mania in the whistle category that pushes demand up when the whistles might be good but priced so far above the average market. I’ll tell you why I ask that. Since ITM flutes are not my primary flute nor my colleagues, we sit around trying different things. I took two Low D whistles. One a wooden one that doesn’t seem to sell well, and a very popular aluminum one which is in demand. I guess I could trade it right away because every so often I see WTB. The non-Irish players I have had test them always prefer the less popular one than the Irish ones. I’ve seen tulip mania in some of the other flute categories too. People paying in ordinate amount of money simply because of a makers name. Does ITM area have this going on too?

There are a few corners where silly money is being paid and some attempts at gross profiteering can be spotted (look at the for sale ads), mostly on the internet. Sindt whistles are at that point at the minute. Copeland drifts in and out of that bracket as well.

The difference in appreciation you mention can be well explained by one group of players making different aesthetic choices than the other. Looking for other characteristics and a different appreciation rather than tulip mania.

Pretty much what F. said above:

Is it possible that you are not viewing things from within the ITM tradition then. It’s easy to see all markets as commodity markets when viewed from the outside of that market. But finer points may be understood and valued differently by those within or closer to the business of that market.

10

I see very few people over price their instruments. I daresay that musicians are a fairly intelligent lot and mostly know relative value of their gear. I don’t see overpriced items selling either…

Also there is a big difference between 10% off a $450 flute and 10% off a $2800 flute. I see way more low-end instruments discounted a high percent than the more expensive ones.

When you are buying a botique item, you cannot apply other depreciation schemes to such a market. This is like applying car depreciation to the housing market.

11

Well, once the house moves off the lot, it’s usually immediately worth less. :laughing:

12

You mean everybody doesn’t live in trailers?

Best wishes.

Steve

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Not sure that I understand the OP issue. If you think that the prices listed for a used flute or whistle are out of line with your expectations, you are certainly able to pass on purchasing same. Some, not myself, feel that it is worth it to shortcut the waiting list certain makers have, or to get an instrument that has been “vetted” by another player that they respect. If that isn’t you then I’m sure the makers will appreciate your business.

As has been discussed in many other posts, the pricing on flutes and whistles as appropriate for ITM use are pretty great bargains, even new, compared to comparable level instruments in other venues. Sounds to me like you are complaining that owners are not dropping the prices of used instruments they want to sell, for whatever reason, to where you would like them to be. As I see it, once you take ownership of the instrument you can value it as you like (if buyers exist at that price, that is great - otherwise I guess you get to keep it). Not that it is directly applicable, but I have a Wm. Hall and Sons antique that I picked up needing fairly extensive repairs. I did the work and have put in years playing the flute. I would certainly not sell it now for anything less than 10 time the cost of the original purchase plus my hourly rate for work, but that is because, for me, this particular flute is somewhat irreplaceable. I wouldn’t trade it for a Grinter or an Olwell either, but that is just me.

I guess what I’m saying is that there are still some great values on perfectly grand used whistles and flutes out there, if you don’t give up looking. If you look further on this site you will see many discussions of the merits of makers other than those that are the “flavor of the day”. Perhaps, as a professional, you can look for one of those instead and work on making it play up to your expectations.

I do understand the value of getting a new instrument directly from a modern maker; warrantee service and the like, but these are fairly simple instruments that tend not to need a lot of servicing. I do sympathize with your frustration with used prices to some extent. One of my other hobbies is blacksmithing, which has in the last 10 or so years experienced a bit of a resurgence. Anvils, which are fairly tough to damage if used properly, used to sell used for on the order of $1-2 per pound in usable condition over here in the States. With the increase in popularity, and the advent of anvil collectors and internet sales, anvils in even questionable condition are soaring to $4-5 per pound - approaching the cost of new anvils. That’s for a shaped lump of steel with rather minimal tolerance requirements, not a finely crafted musical instrument.

14

Trailers? Heavens no! “Tiny Houses” are presently all the rage. :wink:

"A rose by any other name … "

15

Looking in the background reminded me …

I always thought it would be cool to live in a lighthouse.

But you have to a lighthouse keeper to do that, and I never see those jobs advertised anywhere. I guess you got to know the right people …

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Correct. You have to be a descendant of a lighthouse keeper to apply.

17

Not exactly sure how you can apply for the position if you pre-decease the current occupant… :poke: , but I guess since lighthouse keeping is fairly solitary it doesn’t matter if you are a spirit? :wink:

18

Just buy new whistles and keep the makers making. Nothing like the fresh sound/feel of air coursing thru the whistle tube first thing in the morning.

19

Hmmmmmm……… :confused: It appears I have used the incorrect term. :slight_smile: So what is the term for a relative of a lighthouse keeper?

kin, kinsman, kinswoman, relation

20

I never see those jobs advertised anywhere. I guess you got to know the right people …

There’s another way!