I’ve been playing a couple of nice tunes, jigs, Tony Sullivan’s “Butlers of Glen Avenue” & “Mouse in the mug”, which I heard on K. Crawford’s 2nd CD. They go well on the flute and sound somewhat the same in the beginning - Is “Mouse in the mug” a trad., or newly composed tune - Does anyone else here play theses tunes?
I do, both of them.
I’m not familiar with the origin of neither one of those tunes, but the jig that’s called Butlers of Glen Avenue on Lúnasa’s Otherworld CD (and starts like The Mouse in the Mug) is probably actually The Roaring Barmaid.
Oh well, it’s big enough a job to learn the tunes - let alone struggle through the jungle of titles. 
Well Tony Sullivan composed “Butlers of Glen Avenue” it says, but “Mouse in the mug” I don’t know the origin of either. Both good tunes as is “Dusty windowsills” on the flute
i think the Mouse in the Mug was recorded by Paddy Killoran during his last visit to ireland in the 1950s. Paul de Grae posted about this to IrTrad about six months ago, trying to find out if Killoran had a hand in composing the tune.
There’s a discussion over at thesession.org that should bring some light on the jungle of tune titles..
http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display.php/820
Do correct me if I’m wrong, but here’s how it all appears to me.
Both The Butlers of Glen Avenue and The Roading Barmaid are composed by Tony Sullivan. The tune that starts the same way as Mouse in the Mug is The Roaring Barmaid. The Butlers of Glen Avenue on the other hand is widely known as Christy Barry’s#2, being the second tune of the “Christy Barry’s set”, available on CD by Christy Barry on “Late in the night” and Kevin Crawford on his “D Flute Album.”
Lúnasa had incorrect information on the title while recording Otherworld - this has later been admitted by Kevin Crawford for instance in the liner notes of “In Good Company.”
Dusty Windowsills is a lovely tune on the flute, too. Gives space for nice energetic variations.
"The Butlers of Glen Avenue on the other hand is widely known as Christy Barry’s#2, being the second tune of the “Christy Barry’s set”, available on CD by Christy Barry on “Late in the night” and Kevin Crawford on his “D Flute Album.” Markus.
Are you sure Markus? I play the two tunes called “Christy Barrys” on the D flute" CD and the second tune in the set isn’t the same as “The butlers…” I haven’ t the Christy Barry CD though so I can’t comment on the tunes there.
When talking about names of Irish tunes one can never claim to be absolutely sure and right. However I have various sources saying that the tune-known-as-Butlers-of-Glen-Avenue is actually Roaring Barmaid and a few saying that the second jig of “Christy Barry’s Set” is called Butlers of Glen Avenue (which shall from now on be referred to as BOGA 
) I am certainly not saying that Christy Barry’s#2 is the same tune you play as BOGA, I think they’re two different tunes both composed by Tony Sullivan - the confusion on the subject is due to Lúnasa’s mistake admitted by the band numerous times.
On another subject, about Mouse in the Mug. It also seems to be called Mouse in the Jug by some people. In thesession.org there’s a discussion about the schottische Flowers of Milltown with a person who’s heard of it under the title “Mouse in the Cupboard.” And if you listen to these two tunes, they actually are quite similar. So Mouse in the Mug just might be a jig version of Flowers of Milltown?
Markus, you are correct. There was a long discussion on several sites regarding these tunes due to Lunasa’s mixup. The issue was settled when someone chimed in with the notion of looking it up in Tony Sullivan’s tunebook. Sure enough, BOGA is Roaring Barmaid and vice versa. The title Christy Barry’s #2 was made up by some hooligan who didn’t know the name or history of the tune.
Mouse in the Mug/Jug is the jig version of Sweet Flowers of Milltown (the more accurate title). Sweet Flowers of Milltown is also called Tom Morrison’s Hornpipe, because Tom Morrison composed it. Mouse in the Cupboard is a completely different jig altogether. There is also another completely different jig called Mice in the Cupboard, which is more commonly known as Willie Coleman’s.
Speaking of, around here “Dusty Windowsills” is known as “Austin Barrett’s.”
Crazy. Anyway, I too thought of “Butlers” as “The Roaring Barmaid” (NOT to be confused with “Roaring Mary”! 
), so thanks for clearing that up.
Hi, just a quick point on “The Mouse in the Mug”. I wrote that tune back in the early eighties. It was previously recorded by Niall Keegan on his “Don’t Touch the Elk” album (http://www.ul.ie/~iwmc/nk/part1.html) and is also transcribed as “Tom McElvogue’s Other Jig”. I would be interested to hear the Paddy Killoran tune mentioned by Peter Laban. The name “mouse in the mug” was actually given to the tune by guitarist Shane McGowan who didn’t have a name for the tune. The tune was doing the rounds shortly after I wrote it at various Fleadh’s in England and Ireland and then dissappeared off the map until Kevin Crawford’s album. Kevin picked the tune up from a recording of a trio of musicians which included Shane McGowan on guitar which is where he got the tune.
Thanks for the info Tom. it’s a nice tune. At
http://www.irishtune.info/tune/2518/
it says (compare with Butlers of Glen Avenue & Roaring barmaid by T. Sullivan). Interesting
Hey, Tom, are your ears burning? They’re saying very nice things about you on the WFO2 thread. 
Just thought I’d share the appreciation around!
Thanks for the appreciation Cathy, my ears aren’t quite burning yet but hopefully they will soon.
Hi Steampacket, I never understood the comparisons with the Butlers of Glen Avenue as I believe the tune often referred to as “The Butlers of Glen Avenue” is actually a different Tony Sullivan tune. The Butlers of Glen Avenue from Tony Sullivans book actually starts on a low D and is more correctly referenced at
I learnt that “Butlers of Glen Avenue” tune from Tony Sulllivans banjo tutor. Hey, maybe the Tony Sullivan Banjo tutor is wrong ? Stranger things have happened ! Anyway, I hope that was of some use…
Cheers,
Tom McElvogue
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Hi Tom - good to see you here. BTW, your WFO2 CDs went out June 3, so they should be arriving about now. How’s progress coming on your own CD?
Kevin Krell
Kevin,
thanks for the CD’s. I received them today. Haven’t had a chance to listen right through yet but what I have heard so far sounds great. Fantastic job and thank you for your patience. I have recorded 14 tracks for my CD and have to re-record flute on possibly 4 of the 14 tracks. I decided to leave it a while before mixing as I ended up picking the recording to pieces when I initially tried to mix the album. I am expecting a finished CD in a month or so. I will make sure and send you over some copies for you to listen/pass around.
Thanks again,
Tom McElvogue
OK, let me know if there’s anyway I can help on this end. A serious offer, not “let’s do lunch”.
I realize you’re new to posting on the C&F Forum, but might have still been reading messages. You might also want to hang around the Woodenflute list (available as lots of individual emails or more simply as a daily digest) over at http://www.woodenflute.com/public/email_lists . A lot of players, flute makers and enthusiasts participate there.
Kevin Krell
I based my comment on a post to Irtrad by Paul de Grae of which i had some vague recollection. I have dug up the post and it seems there another batch of half recollected information in there.
Peter,
thanks for digging that up and also for remembering the post. I am a little stunned and also surprised at the closeness of the two tunes. I wrote what I thought to be my tune when I was 14 or 15 back in Newcastle, England. I didn’t have much access to recorded music or RTE radio. My parents aren’t Irish so I wasn’t listening to music from an early age other than a handfull of bothy band/chieftans CD’s. Maybe I had the tune hanging around in my head from somebody playing it but didn’t realise at the time - that has certainly happened before. I might stick a link up to my compositions so that I can get some feedback as to whether they strike a chord with anyone.
On a slightly different note, it’s great to see some of your photographs scattered around the web. As a photographer myself it’s good to see the photographs of Miltown Malbay and the other sessions. I’d be interested to see more of them if you have any particular site where you display them.
Thanks for the information.
Regards,
Tom McElvogue
Let’s not jump to conclusions about the origins of the tune [i.e. any existence before you composed it] before we have actually heard Killoran play it. Paul didn’t actually hear Killoran but knows the tune, like the rest of us but so far the Killoran trail is only based on hearsay allthough there are worse sources of information about old recordings than Philippe Varlet who connected Killoran the tune in the first place[the reference of the Ennis ceiliband is probably based on mistaking Killoran and Morrison and the Flowers of Miltown] . I know some of the material Killoran recorded at that time but this tune is not among them. I know Harry Bradshaw gave a full copy of that recordingsession, cleaned up and all to Caiomhin O Raghallaigh, if I have time I’ll drop in on Caoimhin during the week to listen to that material and see what comes up. I have played the tune for Kitty Hayes who was married to Josie hayes whose sister in turn was Killoran’s wife. They had Killoran staying when he was over and she usally recognises tunes he played at the time, she didn’t recognise this one as one of his [well, she did recognise it but from the Kevin Crawford CD, Kevin is by the way a [second?] cousin of Josie Hayes so it’s all very tight knit and interconnected]
(edited to weed out some typos)
Thanks for the extra information Peter, it would be great if you get a chance to hear the recording and let us know your opinion!