Tune Terms in Gaelic

Got some confusion I’d like to have some guidance on.

I’ve come across some variability in the Gaelic when it comes to the terms for jigs, reels, etc.

Jig or tune: port. Haven’t found any variation there, yet.
Hornpipe: cornphíopa, crannciuil.
Reel: ríl, cor, seisd.
Planxty: plancstaí, plearaca

The final entries of the last three come out of the old O’Neill’s. I don’t recall at this time if I’ve come across any other terms that seem optional; I just threw in port for the contrast. Any Gaelic speakers out there who could give me some background on this?

Thanks in advance.

N

Not a Gaelic speaker, but I seem to recall reading somewhere that the word “planxty” was not at all common, and someone had to ask O’Carolan for an explanation - a tribute or toast to whomever. The different spellings might be varying attempts at a phonetic spelling.

djm

those are the ones I use, 'cept I only use Cor for reel (tho i have heard of ríl)

go n-éirí an t-adh leat!

-A

Breathnach uses “Ríl”, and could only get his collections published in Gaelic, so I would go with whatever spellings he has as being modern and correct.

There was a lot of revisionism going on in the 20th century to try and standardize Irish spelling, so it may be that you are running into older material. Again, Breathnach is probably your best bet when not sure.

djm

Tomás de Bhaldraithe lists both Cor and Ríl, but uses Cor as the favored definition, and cites “cor ochtair” as the dance “eight hand reel”
http://www.setdanceteacher.co.uk/8hreel.htm

Thanks so far, guys. I guess I need to clarify: my curiosity lies in not so much as to what the “correct” term is, but why the other terms are or have been in use, and if their use can be explained historically or linguistically.

For instance, in contrast to Antaine, most liner notes in my possession use the word ríl, and I only recently came across cor, but I don’t doubt its utility. As for seisd (as seen in O’Neill’s 1850), the spelling is no doubt a good example of pre-standardization (I’m no Gaelic speaker of any stripe, so please forgive my presumption), but it’s the word itself that has me curious. That’s the only source I’ve seen it in; my question is:

…why?

Also interesting would be to know what’s implicit in using these different terms; that is, shades of meaning, if any.

well, consider something similar in english, we have
song tune dance jig/reel/ballad/air(the specific type) number piece work and prolly a couple others that all can mean exactly the same thing (for instance a jig is also a dance, and can be called a tune or a song or anything else that applies)

A couple of further examples;
Fonn Mall =Air
Polcai = Polka(s).

Yeah, exactly. That’s why I’m asking! Just wondering if ríl, cor, and seisd, for example, actually mean the exact same thing or not, or if regional usage might come into play, too. I asked one fellow, an Irish Gaelic speaker and musician, about crannciuil, and he had never heard of it. I assume he hadn’t used the old O’Neill’s as a reference, ever. His assumption was that it was a mistake, but a search I did yesterday offered up a recording where a hornpipe was termed crannciuil. I don’t recall if it was a tune out of the 1850 or not, sorry.

“Crannciuil” looks like it might be a compound word. “Crann” means “mast”, and hornpipes are associated with sailors, who are associated with masts. Unfortunately, my little Gaelic book doesn’t have an entry for “ciuil”, but perhaps it has a meaning of its own?

it appears to be a suffix, like -óir. I don’t think it’s a word by itself.

An interesting aside: it was told to me that dancing the hornpipe was medically prescribed to stave off scurvy among sailors, before the citrus connection was discovered.

Crann also means “tree”, as well as referring to the ITM ornamentation of the same name (or cran, if you like :wink: ).

Any ITM linguists out there who could go further with the questions of my initial post?

Roger O’Keeffe! Paging Doctor Roger O’Keeffe!


Hmmm…I ain’t no Celtic philologist, but let me see what I can come up with here.

“Ciuil” is a variation on “ceol”, a word some of you may already be familiar with. Don’t forget that in Irish, different grammatical situations require changes in the spelling of certain words. Not that I can explain any of that. I’m an English teacher by profession, so I don’t know s**t about grammar.

While in Ireland hanging around with real-live-untamed Irish speakers, the only word I ever heard for reel was “ril” (pl. “rileanna”–apologies for not throwing in fadas or other assorted diacritical marks. I’m too lazy).
In Scottish Gaelic, the same term is used, though spelt differently (“ruidhle”). I’m sure “cor” and “seisd” have been used as well, though perhaps they have fallen out of frequent usage. Perhaps “cor” is used more for referring to dancing a reel as opposed to playing one. I have never, ever heard the term “seisd” used for reel. In Scottish Gaelic, “seisd” is commonly used as a term for the chorus of a song.

Something tells me that if you were to show up at a session and refer to a hornpipe as a “crannciuil,” everyone else would probably look at you like you were from Mars. Then again, they might do that to you anyway for saying anything in Irish at all. “Crannciuil” may very well be what a dead, white, Chinese linguist from Cambridge once termed a “hapax legomenon”–i.e. a word that is used once in print but never catches on and never appears again.

Nope, never heard a hornpipe called that at all. Must be a Cambridge thing. :laughing:

Thanks, TSP! This is starting to warm up. :party:

Hmm, yes, this thread clearly needs a specialist consultation, but my specialist knowledge is somewhat limited, and I felt that I couldn’t add much more than speculation, and that while the doctors differ the patient might die.

For what it’s worth, here is my modest contribution.

Some of the issues are discussed in Beandán Breathnach’s book, but I haven’t got it to hand.

Ríl is indeed the word that you’re most likely to hear among modern speakers of Irish, and it is no more than an Irish spelling of the English word. Contemporary Irish is so penetrated by English that in many cases an English word is freely used even where a perfectly good Irish word exists, and some constructions would not even be readily understood by a hypothetically “pure” Irish speaker unless he had learnt English. So, where a Dublin schoolboy of the 1950s/60s like myself would strive to use the idiomatically and lexically pure construction “Tá mo rothar á teannadh agam”, a contemporary native speaker even then would probably have said “Tá mé ag pumpáil mo bheidhcicil”, i.e. “I’m pumping my bicycle”. Maybe Patrick Pearse should have rolled over and gone back to sleep on Easter Snday morning 1916.

I remember reading, and it may have been in Breathnach, that “cor”, which means uneven, odd, anomalous, used to describe a reel, suggests that the default assumption was that a tune (port) should normally be in triple time (cf the use of a C which is in fact a broken circle to represent"common" time, whereas a circle, representing perfection, was apparently used in liturgical manuscripts to represent triple time, by reference to the Blessed Trinity). Port can mean any kind of a dance tune, but is also the normal word used in Irish for a jig. Fonn, which could be said to correspond to “melody”, is the word used for a slow air, though I don’t know if the qualification “mall” , (slow) is necessary or not.

As regards the hornpipe, it seems to be generally accepted to be an English invention (possibly because of association with Jack Tar), and I would normally expect an Irish speaker to call it cornphíopa. I’ve seen crannciúil in O’Neill’s, but don’t think it’s widely used. “ciúil” is not a standard suffix, and I know nothing about the etymology. Crann is primarily a tree, though it is also used for the mast of a ship.

There is a very helpful Irish scholar on Mudcat who trades as Philippa, and maybe we could summon her for a consultation here (assuming that she isn’t still mad at me for what I thought was a sweet diminutive of her name, until her reaction caused me to look it up in the dictionary Ach fágfaimíd sin mar atá sé). To be continued.


PS, you’re bringing me back a few years with your hapax legomenon, Pitchfork, old sport, though strictly speaking it’s something once said rather than once printed (or even written :wink: ).

Thanks, Roger! This is getting better. Much appreciated.

:laughing: Indeed. Then again, this happens in any language and may in the end wind up being a healthy thing. Japanese for instance seems to be absorbing about 100 loan words (mostly, though not entirely, English) a week. In some situations it seems almost impossible to form a sentence in “pure” Japanese anymore. Consider the following, for example:
Baito o getto shita–“I got a part-time job.” Baito is short for arubaito, the Japanese pronunciation of the German word arbeit.
In contemporary Japanese, it has come to mean “part-time job.” Getto is simply the English word “get” modified with shita, the past tense of “to do.”

I’ve been reading Simon Winchester’s book “The Meaning of Everything” about the making of the Oxford English Dictionary. Fascinating stuff. It contains a short potted history of English and briefly discusses the efforts of some people to rid it of foreign loan words and return it to its “pure” Anglo-Saxon roots. For example, by using “faith-heat” in place of enthusiasm or “wheelsaddle” instead of bicycle. Interesting, but it never really caught on.

I remember reading, and it may have been in Breathnach, that “cor”, which means uneven, odd, anomalous, used to describe a reel, suggests that the default assumption was that a tune (port) should normally be in triple time (cf the use of a C which is in fact a broken circle to represent"common" time, whereas a circle, representing perfection, was apparently used in liturgical manuscripts to represent triple time, by reference to the Blessed Trinity). Port can mean any kind of a dance tune, but is also the normal word used in Irish for a jig. Fonn, which could be said to correspond to “melody”, is the word used for a slow air, though I don’t know if the qualification “mall” , (slow) is necessary or not.

Fascinating stuff.



PS, you’re bringing me back a few years with your hapax legomenon, Pitchfork, old sport, though strictly speaking it’s something once said rather than once printed (or even written > :wink: > ).

Thank you, Roger, for your clarification. I’m completely ignorant of Irish, but my Latin is even more hazy.[/i]

Umm..

(I think that was Greek.)

Getto suru??? Shinjirarenai!!

Un! Soo yo! Boku wa usotsuki ja nai!

Inevitable, I suppose. sigh

Quick aside as told me by an English teacher in Japan, re: their love of, er, “emphatic” language:

The assignment was to compose and recite a complex sentence, and one fellow offered up (phoneticised, punctuated and italicized to attempt imitation of delivery): “Yesutadei Ai uento tsu: Yoyogi Paaku. Batto. Itto wa_zu_. Fuaakingu hotto!”

:smiley: