I’ve been working through Bill Och’s Tinwhistle Handbook, and I’m having trouble figuring out whether I should be double-tonguing in the fast tunes (not the Irish ones, things like the Morris dances and such).
To me it sounds like he is not double-tonguing on the recorded CD, but a tune like “The Old Grey Cat” has runs of sixteenth notes that he plays as “swung” or dotted pairs, so it’s some pretty fast tonguing.
Any advice on whether I should be practicing my single-tonguing to be able to get that fast, or work on double-tonguing?
I can’t find a reference to double-tonguing in the book, so it seems like maybe I should just practice the single. Anyone?
Before I start this message, let me start of saying that I recommend the ochs tutorial over any other whistle tutor I’ve encountered. It’s the only one I’ve ever recommended here to start with. That said, the thing I personally dislike most about the Ochs tutorial is the amount of tongue he uses. I used the Och’s tutorial for a good couple of years before moving on to other books (such as Peter Pickering’s ‘Play Pennywhistle Now’, and The Mizzy McCaskill/Donna Gilliam book “Irish Tin Whistle Book”). Breaking the tounging to sound more legato, tinkling sound was a big hurdle for me (and in fact, many tunes on my webpage are still recorded in that early style). My personal suggestion would be to try to drop the tounging all together (esp on fast tunes such as Old Grey Cat) and work on your breath control playing them all together. For that tune, I’d suggest tounging the first 3 notes of the phrase, and then letting the scales run legato…with no tounge at all.
Greg
On 2001-10-28 19:44, johner wrote:
Hello,
I’ve been working through Bill Och’s Tinwhistle Handbook, and I’m having trouble figuring out whether I should be double-tonguing in the fast tunes (not the Irish ones, things like the Morris dances and such).
To me it sounds like he is not double-tonguing on the recorded CD, but a tune like “The Old Grey Cat” has runs of sixteenth notes that he plays as “swung” or dotted pairs, so it’s some pretty fast tonguing.
Any advice on whether I should be practicing my single-tonguing to be able to get that fast, or work on double-tonguing?
I can’t find a reference to double-tonguing in the book, so it seems like maybe I should just practice the single. Anyone?
Thanks,
John
[ This Message was edited by: Wandering_Whistler on 2001-10-28 23:53 ]
I am using the Mel Bay “Fun with the Tin Whistle.” It is very elementary, which is where I’m at right now. I have been playing with no tonguing at all except for repeated notes. Then I listened to the tape that came with it and noticed that nearly every note is tongued. Isn’t this odd? What is the general concensus on the matter?
Thanks for the reply. To tell you the truth, I agree the tonguing in those tunes is a bit excessive, but that’s really why I’m studying them. I’ve been playing for a couple of years and am trying to get better at tonguing, even though I don’t really plan on using it as much in my own playing. But I love Brian Finnegan’s playing, for example, and he uses all sorts of tonguing that I’m miles away from being able to do, so I thought I’d try to work through those tunes in Och’s book to get better at it.
To be fair, he does adopt a less “tonguey” style when he introduces ornamentation and moves into the more traditional Irish tunes later in the book. For instance the final few tunes on the CD flow pretty well I think. It seems maybe those ones earlier in the book are in a different, historically earlier style, which is why some are recorded with tambourine and such. And some are fife tunes, hence the military snare. So maybe that staccato style of playing is appropriate for those styles. I don’t know, just a guess. In any event I thought it would be a worthwhile technique to have, even if I don’t use it as much.
So, whaddya think? Single or double?
Thanks again for the reply,
John
[ This Message was edited by: johner on 2001-10-29 02:17 ]
After contemplating about it for a while, I don’t think that there is anything “bad” about tonguing. I also don’t think that tonguing makes a tune less Irish, or groovy. I’ve heard whistle masters who tongue lots as well.
To tongue or not seems to be a question of personal stylistics, and one can play equally well with or without. Saying that tonguing is more authentic is like saying that “Open” piping is more authentic than “Closed” piping, which is not always the case.
Hey John, perhaps you should not deliberately practise single tongues by themselves. If you like to sound like him and use quick single tonguing, I think just more practise of tunes in a moderate speed will suffice. The tonguing articulation tends to add itself subconsciously if you like it.
Eventually, with continual practise, you will be able to play those tunes with tonguing at a faster pace. Incidentally if you don’t like the way Bill Och sounds, you don’t have to emulate him at all, and play the notes in a slurred manner.
Also, I’d suggest skipping double tonguing and going for triple tonguing instead. Theres no question of you being to do the former and if you can do the latter. Moreover, triple tongues are more versatile; they can be used as an ornament or an articulation style.
[ This Message was edited by: Eldarion on 2001-10-29 06:05 ]
Well, John…since you’re actually trying to learn more tonguing, I’d have to agree with Eldarion…single tounge the tunes in moderation, and you’ll find that your tounging improves over time. The Old Grey Cat was devilishly hard for me to tongue quickly at first, but got much easier over time. But again, just my opinion…
Incidentally, I don’t necessarily think Bill Och’s style is any more or less ‘correct’ than anyone else’s…I just personally prefer to the more legato sound…(which is why I immediately went back replaced ‘traditional’ with ‘legato’ in my first posting).
I’d say practice the tune MANY different ways. If you already know how to double/triple tongue, go for it. Eventually, you can learn to single tongue VERY fast. Also try tunes with no tongueing at all. In time, you will develop your own personal style-- for me that’s more important than being totally “authentic” (whatever that means).