For another example of forgiveness in the Bible, read the story of Joseph in Genesis. Quick summary: Joseph was favored by his father, was sold into salvery by his brothers, is framed and ends up in jail, and later becomes #2 in Egypt (behind the Pharaoh). In chapter 45, he reveals himself to his brothers, and instead of taking revenge, forgives them for what they had done.
45:5 “But don’t be angry with yourselves that you did this to me, for God did it. He sent me here ahead of you to preserve your lives.”
Chistianity is Eastern. As you well know, evil begins with the loss of self-control. It’s hard to explain myths like “Satan” to a responsible person. Leave that for those who need to mold the truth to fit their preferences.
Thanks for the advice. I considered it. But the story of Christ is told in Biblical scripture, as I’m certain you are aware. Those same books attribute evil to Satan. I am wondering how we can cite “orthodox Christianity” in the absence of the balance of information contained in the books. Question stands to E
Sounds like Protestant/Calvinist propaganda to me. Telling someone not to lose self-control is about as helpful as telling someone to be spontaneous. Seems to achieve little more than create repressed personalities, tied-up in knots, with bitter expressions and enormous therapy-bills.
I just wanted to add my $.02: sometimes it’s actually good to lose your self-control.
I do think we have to take responsibility for evil ourselves–when we have a handy scapegoat like “The Devil made me do it!” then we have this wonderful way to abdicate responsibility, and nothing is ever really our own fault.
The scary truth is we don’t need any devil: humanity’s track record shows him to be quite evil enough without help from Outside.
I’m quite flawed. I seldom consider forgiveness unless the one who has wronged me wants it, and has irrefutably changed his/her ways that led to the wrong in the first place.
Forgiveness to me is more an indication of amplitude, if you will: the more a wronging is to the forefront of my memory, the less forgiving I am; it’s difficult if not impossible to get on with a fresh start, otherwise. It’s been said, “Forgive, but never forget.” I’ve never seen the difference in the two, and believe me, I’ve tried.
It just occurred to me that the phrase “forgive and forget” says something about this.
Jon-M is correct in saying that for us Buddhists evil is basically a matter of ignorance. This then begs the question, “Ignorant of what?” and leads directly back to the issue of forgiveness and its twin, blame. Forgiveness and blame are not a matter of absolution, but rather of interdependence. To put it crudely, the ignorance Jon-M is alluding to is not realizing our fundamental core connectedness.
The 7th century Chinese Zen teacher Hui Neng put it like this, “When I am wrong, I alone am to blame. When others are wrong, I alone am to blame.”
The thing here is that “just say no” works for kids who actually don’t want to smoke pot or whatever, but do not have the will to resist the peer pressure. By setting up a “no-saying” role model, it supposedly becomes easier to resist the peer pressure.
The problem with Lorenzo’s “self-control” is twofold, first of all it’s a bit like giving someone the music to a Liszt piano etude and telling them to “just play it”. Being told to control yourself doesn’t help you actually control yourself.
Second problem is that it’s insufficient to merely control yourself. “But I tell you, he who as much as desires another man’s wife, has already broken the marriage.” Meaning, the aim is not to want to transgress and not merely to supress or control the impulse to transgress once it arises.
Of course instead of telling you how not to desire what you shouldn’t desire, “leading Christian thought” will tell you that (a) you won’t be able to anyway, (b) it’s not meant the way it was said, or (c) struggle as you will, you’ll be saved by the grace of God (i.e. at the whim of God), or not at all. All of the above are a bit unsatisfactory, but that’s probably just me.
Okay, I think that was my religious post quota for the year, right there. If I’ve offended your religious sensitivities, I didn’t mean to.
I have a question for those taking part in this thread, and I’m absolutely serious.
Why do you suppose it is that no women (or very few - since I’m not positive of the gender of some posters on this thread) have posted to this thread or to some of the other OT threads going recently?
Is it that women aren’t as contentious? Aren’t as intellectual?
Aren’t quite so certain they’re always right? Or simply aren’t as interested in hearing themselves talk?
As I said, I’m dead serious. I’d like to know your thoughts.
Susan, I’m surprised at you! First, to solicit assumptions from males as to what that more inscrutable gender might be thinking, and second, that your observations border on the sexist. And I thought we had come so far, all of us.
Seriously, I dunno. The issues of this thread had me looking inward, and so my previous -and what would otherwise have been only- post was an offering based on what I see in my own inner dynamics. Nowhere have I laid claim to being right.
-Others should forgive those who have offended or hurt them. -I, On the other hand, find thumbscrew, rack or iron maiden too good for those who offend or hurt me or mine. So it goes. I don’t believe this was the relativity Einstein referred to.
Satan is female, of course. It was a woman who first tempted man and brought on this whole mess. Man is marked by original sin by virtue of having been born of a woman. Martha Steward is a woman (I think).
Oh, all right. I’ll give you that one. Women are not posting to this thread because of guilty feelings.
But how do you explain the Should Nader Run thread? Seven pages and apart from one post by me on the first page and one post by an individual of whose gender I am uncertain, every post is by men.
(Now that I think of it, the fact that I’m the only woman posting to this thread, and possibly the only woman to post to the Nader thread has me worried…)
Nancy Reagan’s “just say no” plan has been heralded as something of a success, course that’s with addictive drugs - not religion. 
Or simply aren’t as interested in hearing themselves talk?
