Yup, there conversations have been happening everywhere, for years.
I think what always bothers me the most is the uncharitable commentary that ends up going along with them. The claims that the only reason to own an expensive/wood/whatever whistle is to show it off. The claims that if you do own one of these whistles, you invariably can’t play worth a damn.
It’s mean-spirited. And there’s simply no call for it.
But then again, I’ve been watching the same type of commentary on C&F (in its various incarnations) for a couple of decades now. I guess there’s nothing to be done about it.
As a clarinet player myself I can say clarinets are pricey haha. However, I also think Abell whistles are pricey. I have played music most of my life and even minored in music in college. I can tell you that I fully appreciate and respect ITM. I am seeking to understand it fully and to do that.. As Yoda said I have to unlearn what I have learned and realize I’m in a different world where you don’t necessarily play what is on the page and you may not even have the page haha. I’ve had a Cooperman tin whistle since 6th grade that I got in Williamsburg, VA. Since then I have dabbled with it. It has been in the last year or so where I bought a Burke D in Brass, Narrow Bore, and started committing myself to learning ITM technique and ornaments fully through The Online Academy of Irish Music and through books and listening.
My purchase of an Abell is just to have a quality instrument beyond the Burke and to also have a wooden whistle, which I don’t have. I also have a Jerry Freeman Generation, a three key/body Susato Kildare set, a Clarke original, and a Walton (which is my car whistle).
My girlfriend, a non-musician, probably thinks I spend more time practicing tin whistle than spending time with her hahaha. That’s not true haha. She wouldn’t understand even if I wanted to show the Abell off haha.
You are correct on that one. Many people including myself enjoy the sound and ease of playing of a good a modern whistle, just like most flute players, myself included tend to prefer the modern copies of the traditional flutes that have been tweaked and altered to play more easily in tune with more volume and that burrr we seem to prize in modern trad. Many of the great old flutes need constant nudging and minute adjustments while playing a tune just to play in tune with themselves.And when played well often have a sweeter character that we are used to looking for. If you are an expert on a particular antique instrument you may do fine if you happen to have a quality antique. And the not so great antique flutes are often a struggle to get to play in the way we expect modern trad to sound.
If we go back to the historical recordings we will find flutes are often out of tune with the band they are playing in, or pretty weak with a relatively flimsy tone compared to what we all expect in a modern flute.
That takes us full circle to the Generation purists who think it is somehow an insult to the instrument to embrace the changes in sound from a Generation to a Sindt, Abell, Copeland or O’roidon, but happily sit down in a session with an Olwell or a Grinter flute.
Many people including myself enjoy the sound and ease of playing of a good a modern whistle,
I think this is usually where this discussion breaks down in to uncomprehension. The point Richard is making, and one I would make myself, is that the ‘traditional’ whistle, Generation, Feadog, Oak, is markedly more agile, flexible, less air-consuming than virtually all of the modern ‘designer’ whisltes. Even while the Killarney and Sindt come close, they still want that little bit more effort (it depends a bit on the key and possibly the individual whistle). Ultimately they offer a greater ease of playing.
Aesthetic choices : volume, tone etc are a different matter. Personally I find most modern whisltes lacking in sweetness and especially wooden (D) whistles have a hard edge to their sound I find particularly unappealing but that’s a matter of taste. For the sake of this discussion though it needs to be understood that there is an argument for playability and agility that is present in a good specimen of the ‘cheap’ whisltes that is utterly lacking in quite a few others.
just like most flute players, myself included tend to prefer the modern copies of the traditional flutes that have been tweaked and altered to play more easily in tune with more volume and that burrr we seem to prize in modern trad. Many of the great old flutes need constant nudging and minute adjustments while playing a tune just to play in tune with themselves.And when played well often have a sweeter character that we are used to looking for. If you are an expert on a particular antique instrument you may do fine if you happen to have a quality antique. And the not so great antique flutes are often a struggle to get to play in the way we expect modern trad to sound.
I think your argument ignores issues of availability and maintenance. I think we’re lucky to have a few really fine flutemakers. Just like the 19th century has some really great flutemakers whose instruments survive and are played to this day. But don’t forget, just like modern flutes, not all old flutes are great ones.
I believe Irish players are usually quite pragmatic about these things. If it works and is suitable, it doesn’t matter all that much if an instrument is old or new. I know quite a few people playing Rudalls, some nights I have found myself playing with four Rudalls around me. But all would have had those flutes because they did the job, tone, playability, availability. Chasing down a suitable, well priced, in good condition 19th century is not as easy as it once was (and there was a time ofcourse when there were few alternatives, if any at all) and its certainly easier for most people to go to a modern maker and order a new flute that does the job well. Is it purely because all modern flutes are the better ones, well, I am not so sure.
I always shrug at the use of ‘purist’ in a discussion like this. It is usually a sign of weakness of your argument. Try avoid it.
(EDIT: crossposted with Mr Gumby, which is why my post has some redundancy with his.)
I’m a dinosaur, in that when I started playing ITM everyone played old flutes because that’s what was available. (I played an original c1830 Rudall & Rose for many years, then an original c1860 Pratten model for many more.)
I’ve been out of the flute world for over a decade now. But in my 30+ years of playing Irish flute, having played hundreds of antique English 8-key old system flutes and modern “Irish flutes” I will say that the finest flutes I ever played were old ones, Prattens made in the 1850s and 1860s. Every note from Bottom D up into the 3rd register were clear, powerful, and in tune. The tone exemplified the traditional rich reedy sound, which by the way was in vogue with orchestral flutists in the mid-19th century.
So I can’t agree with the characterisation of old flutes as out-of-tune, being difficult to play, having a sweeter tone, etc. We have to keep in mind that the new makers have been, for over a quarter-century now, endeavouring to capture that vintage sound. Perhaps some have achieved it, I’m not current on the new makers. I know the Olwells I’ve tried have played like the really good old flutes.
We have be careful about not conflating two separate issues 1) the instruments 2) the performance practices of the players.
It’s happened to me many times: I’ve handed my flute to a good Irish player, and the first thing he does, before he plays a note, is to shove the headjoint all the way in. The guy is an excellent player, but he’s playing extremely sharp. And on many old recordings you’ll hear the flutes a mile sharp like that.
Personally with both flutes and whistles it’s not about when an instrument was made, it’s about performance. I think many other players are like that. If the best-performing whistle available to a player is a vintage Generation and the best-performing flute available to that player is a new Olwell then he’s wise to play those. Another player’s best-available whistle might be a new Sindt and his best-available flute might be an 1860 Pratten.
About various modern whistles making changes in sound from Generations, in my opinion what makes Sindts so good is that they capture so well the sound and performance of really good vintage Generations. The modern makers who have diverged most from that great vintage sound and performance are making things I’m not interested in playing.
I accept it as a fact of life that there are people with money who become instrument hoarders. Sometimes these people are poor players and it’s a shame that many fine instruments are kept out of the hands of good players.
But there are hoarders who are fine players! And their instrument collection is likewise out of the hands of others.
I was performing at an Irish festival and a guy came up after our set and started telling me about his whistle collection. From what he said he seemed to be up on every current maker and owned multiple whistles from all of them. And in my hand I had my entire D whistle collection, a 30 year old Feadog. (Which, in all likelyhood, could outplay anything in his collection.) I don’t know if that guy played at all, actually.
In the Highland pipe world there’s a very fine player, a piper in one of the world’s top bands (SLOT), who must have a hundred sets, many of them covered with engraved silver, some bespoke, each set worth thousands. With the Highland pipes it takes some care and effort to keep two or three sets going well. I don’t know how he has the time to maintain that many (if indeed they’re all in playing condition).
About dirt yes. About dents there’s a very good player here, David Brewer, who plays perhaps the best Low D whistle I’ve ever tried, a 1980s Copeland which was dropped on the edge of the mouthpiece and dented.
David said he feared the worst when it was dropped and dented, but pleasantly surprised to discover that the tone was improved by the accident.
When I first started…I bought loads of cheap whistles looking for one that played well…then I discovered it was me that needed to improve…since then, I have bought a few better quality ones, but nothing ‘expensive’, a few are even pre used…& they all seem to play better now, after some practicing.
I had (and still have) a Generation C that got its end caught between the pipes case and its lid. For some reason Micho Russell took a shine to it and always tried to borrow it off me. He used it also when we played together on occasion an d for a few concerts. And dirt.. that one got particularly manky, I think I said here once there was enough grime in it to clone Miicho from and bring him back. I have thoroughly washed it since. Not sure the dent improved it but I don’t think it did much harm either but in general terms I don’t think it’s ‘all the better’ to have a dented instrument, even if there’s always an exception. For the sake of this discussion though, that C whistle is a lot easier to play than the Killarney C I foolishly ordered without trying first.
You need to try a Carbony then. They are my favourite among the more expensive whistles I have played so far. I love how the traditional whistles play (after all, I exclusively played a Gen C for 30 years - but I didn’t practice much back in the day and also didn’t play ITM) but I don’t like the lottery involved. Till I found a modern Generation that played well I had to buy quite a bunch of them.
The Carbonys play much like the tradtitional whistles except that they have impeccable tuning across the octave, a spot-on cross-fingered C nat and are simply the best whistles I played so far (still – that magic of a good red-top Generation – yummie…). Another brand of whistles that plays very much like a traditional whistle (including the breathy sound) are TWZ (but there are some mixed opinions online – I have three of their whistles and they all play great).
I never tried any wooden whistles btw – I prefer the low maintenance of plastic/metal.
On a sidenote – I am not a fan of the Killarney. Mine lacks dynamics (you simply blast into them, that’s probably why they are often recommended for beginners who lack breath control) and the first octave, especially the bell note is weaker than on any of my cheapos (Oak, Gen, Feadóg, Waltons, etc). Maybe I just got a “Monday whistle” but it really doesn’t sound very nice. My vintage Generation (and even some of the newer ones) far outperforms my Killarney. But I haven’t given up on them yet. I am thinking about getting a 2nd one to see if it performs better than the one I have. Yes, I am a hoarder but I try to improve my playing along with buying new whistles . I don’t think a maker will complain if he has a waiting list – whistle making will not make people filthy rich and if the lists are so long – more people should make whistles. There should be a whistle out there for everyone. So far I haven’t heard people complain “I wanna learn the whistle but I can’t buy one, some stupid collectors keep buying them all”. In fact, I only heard about the long waiting list of John Sindt – but some people didn’t have to wait at all to get one. Others waited for years.
I really don’t need another whistle. I don’t think anything is going to make me sound better at this point.
So far I haven’t heard people complain “I wanna learn the whistle but I can’t buy one, some stupid collectors keep buying them all”. In fact, I only heard about the long waiting list of John Sindt – but some people didn’t have to wait at all to get one.
Well, that’s a subject that’s been discussed in the past and it has been mentioned. It is a source of frustration for makers of instruments who become the flavour of the month all of a sudden. Instruments suddenly fetch prices second hand that are multiples of their new price. It also attracts chancers who go on the waiting list only to shift the instrument immediately at a profit. That can put pressure on the maker to up the prices to a level they may consider beyond reasonable. Then there’s the ‘must have one’ buyers or perhaps the ‘must be seen to have one’ buyers. That are never going to play the instrument much but at the same time demand quite a bit of attention from the maker. Makers tend to slip people onto the top of the waiting list who they know are produce great music on the instrument and make great use of it. Young, promising players have a good chance of being bumped up as well. It’s simple job satisfaction, it makes up for some of the other customers.
Yep, I have seen people do that. Buy a Sindt and then immediately sell it for a profit.
Concerning the Carbony whistles - my point was not that you should buy one, only that there are expensive whistles that have all the characteristics that are loved about traditional whistles and improve upon them.
I do quite like his most recent iteration of the high Ds, it’s even better than the one I have. I think the reason Rob’s whistles aren’t more popular is that his early ones were released before they were ready. That early reputation, combined with a material most are unfamiliar with, may have put folks off. But he’s an aeronautics engineer (I think); you work with the material you’re most familiar with.
I did not write that, busterbill, and using the reply function to insult me is poor form.[/quote]
I’m so sorry. I did not intend to offend. I am new to trying to put multiple quotes in. And I think this was the first time I tried to put multiple quotes into a response. I do ask your forgiveness for misquoting you.
Nothing I have ever said in this forum is intended to insult anyone else’s opinion, just to add my own. If any have been offended I am sorry.
There are many differing opinions on most subjects in this world. I humbly add my own to a conversation with good humor, not in any effort to put another’s opinion down, but in an effort to add another layer to a conversation.
No worries mate, voice inflection doesn’t really carry over the internet, and it’s not like you can ask for clarification right away! I get what you were trying to say.
Hi, I just received my new Abell Blackwood D and I am still getting used to it. Those of you who have one, what are the intonation tendencies of it? I found my second octave D to be sharper than the other notes and I had to pull out quite a bit to get it in tune or blow less air. The C Nat fork fingering is dead on in tune.
Does it need to be warmed up more because it is wood? It seemed to get better in tune as I played.
I’m just curious what everyone’s experiences are with intonation with the Abell
