It isn’t, really, because “tuh” and “duh” require the exact same tongue position…the only diffference between the syllables is the voicing, which doesn’t matter in this context. Try saying “tuh” several times in a row. Then switch to “duh”. The tongue position is no different.
Redwolf
Although there may be no difference between “tuh” and “duh” when spoken, it is possible to develop a softer, more legato way of tonguing, and the easiest way to talk about it is to say it’s something like the difference between “duh” and “tuh.” Maybe that comparison isn’t technically correct, though.
Best wishes,
Jerry
The “softer” tonguing I use most often could be described as more of a “luh.” The tongue doesn’t stop the air flow, just quickly partially blocks it. The tip of the tongue just kind of flicks at the roof of the mouth. There’s a huge range of tonguing techniques, and all the shades in between, not just a few syllables as some basic tutorials might imply. (I’m another ex-french horn player, by the way).
Perhaps this thread could be summarized as: “maybe so many people are concerned about tonguing because they hear people who tongue in an awkard, exaggerated manner.”
Hmm. Audry, I do use a different tongue position when I say “tuh” and “duh”. Although in both cases the tongue is touching the roof of my mouth at the base of my front teeth, with “tuh” it’s the tip of my tongue; with “duh” it’s the broader part of my tongue with the tip tucked down out of the way.
And for me, the differences between “tuh” and “duh” tonguing are pretty much as described.
yes, good encapsulation. you french horn players is very insightful…
Redwolf wrote
I’m confused when people try to distinguish between “tah” and “dah” because there’s absolutely no difference with the tongue’s action between the two syllables.
I agree that while in regular day to day speaking there may not be much difference, I believe there is still some difference . The difference being that “tah” is pronounced with the tip of the tongue somewhere near the back of the front teeth where teeth and gums meet.
The “dah” position is somewhat higher and back a bit, on the upper pallete. To get a softer “dah” for whistle playing (pretty much the same for brass instruments too) bring the tongue back even further and release the air from there.
To get the feel for it just pick an easy note to play, say a lower g, then just play and sort of interrupt it with the “dah” syllable. With a little practice you should be able to get the note to sound continuosly, even though you are “tongueing” it. I use “dah” sometimes where it would be nice to slur it, but the interval is just too wide and the attempted slur comes out with a “sqwak” in the middle; sometimes the soft tongue or “dah” can be used instead of a slur, just sounds smoother.
Nope, this one doesn’t work for me, either. Tongue tip position seems to be the same, but there is a difference for me further back. Feel around under your chin with your fingers, back by the neck, as you articulate “tuh” & “duh”. For me, “duh” has more activity there, and there’s a bit more force given to the airstream. Oh hell, I agree with Peter Laban. This whole thread is a waste of time.
I keep seeing conclusions being made based on assumptions I can’t come to agreement with. It’s sort of going like this:
If A then B
We have A
So we must have B
Unfortunately, WE DON’T HAVE A. So, you’re not getting me to B.
Try “tuh-tuh-tuh-tuh”, then “duh-duh-duh-duh” as you say. First off, they are different for me. Regardless of whether your particular initial and return positions do end up the same, if the entire motion of the articulation was the same, then “tuh-duh-tuh-duh” wouldn’t be so damned strange, and should be absolutely comfortable. You can exagerrate it by doing even more repetitions.
As they say in the Boehm world: “Tickle two kitty cats”
Kevin Krell
well, diffferences of opinion always pop up on this subject, probably good IMO.
Just my 2 euro cents (living here in Hamburg at the mo’ as I am):
If this thread has done nothing more than make people think more about what tongueing actually is, then it’s a very good one (and all like it). The only issue I’d have with the original post is that there are waaaaaaaaay more ways of tongueing than just tah and duh (or luh, duh, tuh, dah, do deee etc.). I think one of the most important things when learning ANY wind instrument is the fantastical variety of things the tongue can do if called upon, and it is certainly not a good idea to get “up-tight” about which tongueing is correct, until one has a feel for the kind of music one is playing. Which brings me on to my second point.
It having been pointed out to me by a band member that I was getting a bit staccato on the old whistle in a couple of tunes, I changed my style a bit (I guess I went for the more luh/duh/tuh school of thought) and found that the piece – with that kind of tongueing – simply became much much easier. Doesn’t hold for one style of tongueing though, I guess, since I’ve found in the classical world that some things simply can’t be played unless one is double- or triple-tongueing the stuff, but it’s worth thinking about changing the tongueng if a piece is seeming strangely harder than it should…
Variety is the spice of life, after all.
Greetings,
Az
I had a similar insight to Feadog39’s not so long ago.
I’d always heard various advice about tonguing with the tinwhistle: Don’t tongue every note, don’t tongue at all, etc. I felt I tongued a lot, and worked to learn new tunes with little or no interruption of the airflow, using cuts and ornaments where needed to distinguish repeated notes.
Then I listened closely to good players and thought, “These guys are tonguing all the time.”
The insight, of course, was that there’s tonguing and then there’s tonguing. The sort of hard, abrupt tonguing that causes clear stacatto stops in the music is unadvised in the hands of an amateur. But using your tongue, breath, etc., to shape the music is not only natural but appropriate.
So now I try not to worry about it so much. I avoid hard tonguing (except at times for repeated notes) and otherwise feel free to experiment. I think tonguing in service of rhythm and articulation is a good thing.
– Scott
Redwold is right. True, it defies common sense, but anyone who’s taken a linguistic course will confirm that t and d are both alveolar plosives. End of story.
Jef
whew, that settles that! and thank god. plosives or no plosives, we were almost headed for an imbroglio 
Maybe not. In English, initial t is aspirated, but d is not. English t in other positions is not aspirated, but in all positions, t is fortis and voiceless, while d is lenis and voiced. (But don’t assume that written “t” and “d” always represent the same t and d sounds.)
To complicate matters, native English speakers tend to hear unasiprated, tense initial t as d, as in many Chinese languages.
I’m sure our Indian language experts out there can testify as to the wide variety of plosives at any particular point of articulation (not to mention the great variety of points of articulation relative to English).
There are languages that distinguish a fortis, aspirated t and a lenis, unaspirated t. I think Korean is one.
At any rate, just the fact that t tends to be fortis (strong) and d tends to be lenis (weak) supports feadog39’s original distinction.
Boehm flutists make a definite distinction between “tu” and “du”. We use tu and du, not tuh and duh (Doh!). The “tu” sound is considered harsher and more stacatto. The “du” sound we use for more legato tonguing. The “du” sound also makes for clearer fast tonguing, possibly because there’s less motion involved.
I know this is a whistle thread, but I thought some of you might be interested in a slightly different perspective on the issue.
Dana
Really? 
Then how do you explain the fact that they sound different? Actually the “d” sound is a voiced alveolar plosive
the “t” sound actually is a voiceless alveolar plosive.
Feadog, your original comments were good. I moved from Tah to Dah by getting my unually long tongue out of the way, and tucking it under the beak of the mouthpiece.
I’m not sure exactly how I do it, but I create an almost inaudible Dah by tightening up my mouth and tongue and huffing a little harder. Works for me anyway.
voiceless alveolar plosive…I know there’s a joke in there somewhere but…
hey, stop making fun of Balkan immigrants! They can speak up whenever they want.
well, i’m delighted to hear that these reflections have been helpful. there is a lot of subtlety and complexity to tonguing, and the ‘tah’ ‘dah’ distinction certainly (as somebody said) does not capture the whole range of tonguing possibilities. But at least, i hope, it can help put you on the right track. Good luck!
everytime I play my whistle its says “alright, fine, but no tongue!”