I’ve done some searching thru the forum about tonguing and have found discussions about it here and there, often in reference to double tonguing and triple tonguing. My sense, however, is that the issue of tonguing is the nexus of a beneath-the-surface imbroglio. “To tongue or not tongue” being one of the central points of debate. But also how to tongue. Well, i wanted to weigh in on these issues (although not the imbroglio). Generic disclaimer: this is all IMHO…
The truth about tonguing is that it is absolutely impossible to play the tin whistle without tonguing. My evidence goes as follow: how do you start a tune without tonguing the first note? How do you begin the next phrase after taking a breath or a pause without tonguing? Well, you can’t. The tin whistle is not like the pipes where you squish the air thru to get things going and then sustain the air forever until said squishing stops. No, you absolutely must tongue in order to play the tin whistle.
Having established this point, let me go on to argue that there is a widespread misunderstanding about how one ought to tongue when playing the tin whistle. This point is setting aside the stylistic issues of how much and what kind, which is to some extent is subject to taste. The misunderstanding has its origins in the fact that there are actually two kinds of tonguing: one kind that interrupts the flow of air, and one that does not (or is incredibly minimal). The former kind of tonguing can be understood by reflecting on the way air gets interrupted when you say “tah tah tah tah” etc. The latter kind of tonguing can be understood by reflecting on the way the airflow operates when you say “dah dah dah dah” etc with the tongue touching the roof of the mouth. In classical music for woodwinds, the former is staccato tonguing while the latter is more legato. Let’s call them “tah” tonguing versus “dah” tonguing, respectively.
The “dah” form of tonguing is a very delicate and subtle form of tonguing that often goes unnoticed. In fact, I would venture to say that many whistle players who we might say don’t tongue actually do tongue; it is just in the “dah” form. I’d say Mary Bergin fits in this category. She wings thru tunes so gracefully and beautifully that we don’t notice how she is subtlety sculpting the tune with tonguing all along the way. Rarely do you hear a “tah” or “tut” out of her unless it is a deliberate accentuation as such. Conversely, there are players like Larry Nugent who we accord with tonguing a lot, but what we are really referring to the ornamentation which uses triplets and double tonguing (or the “chitter” as somebody else pointed out) where the staccato nature of the tonguing stands out. However, if you listen carefully, the “dah” form of tonguing is the bread and butter form of tonguing that Larry uses and often in conjunction with slurring. Perhaps the only tin whistle player I can think of who really uses the “tah” form of tonguing as a staple is Micho Russell. But there might be others.
My overall argument is that in comparison to the “dah” form of tonguing, the “tah” form is inferior. All whistle players ought to practice and learn the “dah” form of tonguing thereby learning how to maintain the steady stream of air in a tune. And at least be able to begin tunes as gracefully and unobtrusively as possible and be able to tongue within the parameters of phrases without always having to interrupt the air flow.
We’re not pipers after all. And don’t we thank god for that!!
Although I think it’s weird to avoid using the tongue altogether, it can be done. You can just start blowing air into the whistle. If you need a little extra air pressure to jump to the second octave or something, you can use the throat as an air valve. I think the non-tonguers call it a glottal stop.
You don’t get a clean attack that way, though (by just starting by blowing). You can also begin a tune with a cut, however. I try to avoid glottal stops because they’re really hard on the vocal apparatus, and I’m a singer as well as a whistler.
I believe its best to keep things simple,
if it sounds good and is appropriate to the tune by all means tongue the note (s), but like ornamentation it must be done right.
If the tune is too fast or during phrasing, tonguing makes the tune sound rushed, or
the note is not hit right, its best not to tongue.
Debate all you want but if it sounds right do it , if not, dont.
I dont reckon it gets any simpler then this.
Personally i tongue many notes for emphasis, but not all the time, at pace its just too damn hard and quite often you tend to get a more even “flow” of notes by not tonguing,
Tonguing like ornamentation has its place.
but should be used to its best effect.
My 2 cents worth
Regards David
I’m hoping your dissertation is not on this topic, because your premise is incorrect. Coming from playing the flute, I’ve had no problem starting tunes or playing them with articulation. Huffing and glottal stops, I guess. I’m using tonguing now, when I remember, because it’s appropriate on the instrument, less tiring, and does provide a different style.
I am in almost total (if not total) agreement with feadog39. Feadog’s explanation of starting tunes and phrases and the difference between “tah” and “dah” is spot on. One thing about the “tah” on whistle I’ve found is it really stands out, that is to say it is very noticeable and can appear disruptive to the flow of a tune if overused, or not used in a consistently conscious manner. “Dah” is a much better syllable to use when attempting to play a tune smoothly. I’m not saying to use “dah” all over the place either, just when needed to help smooth things out.
Disclaimer
Of course this is only my opinion, and these thoughts on tonguing are what I use whilst playing the whistle. Someday, after I post something on clips and snips, you can laugh heartily at my folly.
I remain of the opinion that the tongueing issue is more less a non issue that only lives on chiff and fipple and I don’t really want get my head around the tah and dah issues and the difference between the two. I am more of the Homer Simpson school most of the time [plenty of 'D’oh’s].
I listened to feaedog39’s clip of the Knotted Cord which he posted to a thread very recently and while I think I pretty much use a sort of ‘dah’ [OK I am serious for a minute now] i feel there’s a huge difference between how the tune sounds when I play and how Breandan Janis plays it. Which is not to say any of us tw ohas it wrong or any of us has a better way. Just that while we both think we do something similar it comes out completely different
The only issue really relevant I think is the question whether tongueing in a particular way is a help or a hindrance to the tune you’re playing, other than that pretty much anything goes.
Maybe other people can just pick up the whistle and play without thinking of it (I can’t) and the mechanics work themselves out, I suppose that’s possible. I suppose children learn to talk without thinking about it too much, it just happens more or less. It seems less likely, but perhaps you are suggesting whistle playing can be learned in a similar way?
Where came that angle from? Anyhow, my point was that tongueing or not is being discussed here until the cows come home. I suppose you can go a long way not thinking about these things, listening to other players and then listening to yourself, weighing things up but arguably I never learned to play the whislte or thought about it much until plunging into the discussions here. But that was not in any way the point.
Sorry Peter, maybe I became derailed a little, let’s see if I’m back on track now. I take your point to be people just make to much of tongueing, other matters are more important.
good discussion. regarding glottal stops. i did forget to factor them into my brialliant ravings. i play flute too, and use glottal stops quite alot usually in conjuction with the ‘dah’ tonguing. But not on the whistle. Well, i think glottal stops are great on the whistle when you’re ending a note or phase. they sort of give the end of a note a little lift. but glottal starts i find awkaward and unclear. but perhaps that’s just because i don’t know how to do it properly.
yeah, the tonguing issue with the whistle is a bit overdone. i’ll admit. but i think a little bit of insight into it goes a long way. the wrong kind of tonguing, the kind that execesively stops the airlflow, can stop a tune in its tracks.
i actually got this insight about tonguing not from ITM really, but from talking with this guy who plays french horn for the chicago symphony orchestra. his impression was that–even for the new players arriving at the professional level–there is no comprehension or ability to exectute the ‘dah’ kind of tonguing, a problem he blames squarely on the influeces of high school band on musicians where the ‘tah’ ‘tah’ ‘tah’ thing rages outa control. Somewhere along the line, predating my whistle playing, i learned the ‘dah’ kind of tonguing and it has carried over. So this insight may be more helpful to those who aren’t “pure breeds” which is to say whistle players who have prior musical training, background, or influences that are other than ITM. or maybe not.
in any case, i hope this is helpful for some. my perspective certainly is a take-it or leave-it kind of thing. try it out for yourself and see how or if it works.
yup, it was a major imbroglio called “the worste trade in history” back on June 15, 1964 when Lou Brock got traded for Ernie Broglio. Cubs fans here are still upset about it. I know i am.
The other day I was doing some reading in “A Dossan Of Hether”, some quotes from whistler Packie Manus Byrne of Donegal, where he was talking about no longer having great finger movement do to age. He introduced the “didle de - diddle de” tongue tip effect for(one didle de would do here) some tripelets and other similar effects. I had been doing that on the fife some years ago to accentuate tripelets and some other 16th notes along the way.
The last episode of Ceili House on RTE Radio 1 featured the singer/lilter Seamus Fay.
I’ve never taken to lilting, but listening to him, a big light went on in my head. You could hear a relationship between lilting and whistle (or fiddle, pipes, etc.) ornamentation very clearly. It seems to me, learning to lilt any tune you might play would be a terrific way to get the music into your head.
For example, you could hear rolls (or triplets, I suppose, but I heard rolls) wherever he lilted “diddle de” in the tune.
I remember attending a lecture/concert by some noted Indian traditional musicians where the tabla player demonstrated how every note/stroke of the tabla has a vocal counterpart and can be sung. He would sing (lilt) something and then play the exact same thing on the tablas. It was very interesting and impressive.
If anyone would like to hear that Ceili House broadcast, I’ve saved a file that links to the archive of it and can email it. Let me know.
I’m confused when people try to distinguish between “tah” and “dah” because there’s absolutely no difference with the tongue’s action between the two syllables. In speech, “tah” is voiceless, while “dah” is voiced, but when you’re playing the whistle, both are voiceless, but with the same tongue action (i.e., the tongue stopping the air right against the top of the teeth).
Anyhow, my point was that tongueing or not is being discussed here until the cows come home. I suppose you can go a long way not thinking about these things, listening to other players and then listening to yourself, weighing things up but arguably I never learned to play the whislte or thought about it much until plunging into the discussions here. But that was not in any way the point.
