I thought I would try to learn a jig (having sort-of managed one or two reels) - Merrily (kissed/kicked/danced) the (quaker/s wife). Except it is listed as a slide in some places. What is the difference?
I can sort-of play it now, but I wanted to practice the timing, but how do I set the beat and emphasis on the metronome? And is the (simplistic) rule for breathing the same as for other dance tunes - just after the accented beat? And what is a ‘reasonable’ speed to aim for?
I’m no expert on Irish dancing but it seems that single jigs and slides are played somewhat faster than double jigs.
Ceol Rince na hEireann gives 127bpm for double jigs, 137bpm for single jigs, so that’s the tempo you’re shooting for, for dancing purposes anyhow.
About breathing, it’s the same as for any jig, in that an obvious breathing spot is anywhere where the melody goes quarter-eighth rather than eighth-eighth-eighth.
So perhaps
GAB D(breath)B
C2A etc
or
GAB D2B
C(breath)A etc
in that opening bar.
But also in the part that goes
BGG AGG
BGG AGG
you can play
BGG A(breath)G
BGG AGG
etc.
The “where do I take breaths?” thing is very complicated and experienced players do it intuitively, so it’s difficult to boil it down to “rules”.
Normally in a jig the breath takes the place of the middle eighthnote of a group of three, but also you can hit the first eighthnote and take a longer breath, leaving out the last eighthnote of that group.
If you do that, you give a tad more weight to the note you play prior to the breath. (At least I do, anyhow.)
There’s masses of discussion on this subject over at the session.org. My own quick summary of the discussions there, form memory, so apologies to any of the participants if you think I’m not portraying the arguments fairly, goes like this:
In some places (and maybe at some times) there would appear to be a clear distinction between jigs, single jigs and slides
However, as with so many things in Irish music, there is some ambiguity and a degree of looseness abouot the application of the various terms
There seems to be no controversy at all about what constitutes a ‘double jig’ (which are kind of the normal things that we know of as ‘jigs’). These tunes are in 6/8 times and consist mainly of two groups of 3 notes each per bar, with a greater or lesser degree of ‘swing’
Sometimes the terms ‘single jig’ and ‘slide’ are used as if they’re interchangeable. However, quite a few people argue strongly that there is a clear distinction between them
Single jigs are said, by the people who draw a distinction between them and slides, to be played at something around the same tempo as double jigs, but with more of a crotchet quaver feel to them rather than two groups of three quavers like double jigs. An example would be ‘Off She Goes’
Slides are said to be quicker and played a bit straighter, with less bounce. I guess the classic example is The Road to Lisdoonvarna
The conclusion of a lot of, at times acrimonious, arguing at the session.org was that, especially with a tune like Merrily Kissed the Quaker’s Wife, the real difference is made in the playing of it, so it can be played as a double jig or as a slide depending on speed and style.
@Richard - that helps quite a bit - though I need to go back and play along with the ABC/staff to fullt appreciate what is meant. Hopefully I will then internalise the simple breathing pattern at least (about where I am with reels).
@Ben - I did not mean to raise a controversy. The synopsis means that for me, playing this tune, at my level of competence ‘no need to know’. Just the way I like it. I will stay out of any discussion where people are debating this.
@Mr_Blackwood - thanks for the link. That is one that I noticed on YouTube. I am currently using the TradLessons version as my guide - but the Planxty version is on the ‘listen carefully’ list.
Oh, I wouldn’t worry about controversy round here, Phill. We’re civilised people here. If you ever get to play for dancers, it’s fairly apparent what sort of tune they want anyway - they’ll just hum it for you. They’ll say something like "You know, it goes sort of ‘Diddly diddly diddly diddly’ " or they might say "You know, it goes sort of ‘Dum-dy dum-dy daddle-dy dum’ " … and then you’ll know.
The trick with this particular tune is to be able to play it either way. So, either rather brisk at sort of “dum daddle-dy dum-dy dum-da daddle-dy” or rather slower like “da diddle-de da de da de diddle-de” if you see what I mean.
I look forward to playing for dancers - it just might make sense of the dance tunes a bit .
When I was massacring reels, you suggested setting the metronome to do just two beats per bar, to get the emphasis. Is this what I should do for jigs… er slides… er… ah damn it! Is this what I should do for this tune? So each beat of the metronome is half a bar (however many beats that really is)? I am not sure my brain is up to that but I can try.
The short answer to the metronome thing is “Yes”. I.E. set it for each group of 3 quavers in jigs. Which, for double jigs, is two beats per bar. You do need to watch it in this tune - for instance, in the version as set out on the session.org, it’s written out in 12/8, so there are 4 main beats in each bar, and that’s probably what you want to set your metronome to. I tend to write this tune out in 6/8, with each bar half the length of those in the session.org transcription, and, with my dots, there would be 2 main beats per bar, not 4.
Thanks Ben, that does make a lot of sense. It even clarifies a bit about the difference here between 12/8 and 6/8 the former has twice the notes per bar of the latter (doh!). I had not thought of that. I only have versions written 12/8 so did not think to compare with a 6/8, or even wonder what the difference really is. So four beats per bar it is, and if it is noted as 110 that means the metronome is set to 55… why do musicians make thing so difficult?
Er no. For playing speed at sort of slide speed, you want to set your metronome at about 130bpm. Double jig may be your 110bpm. Don’t halve it. Now who’s over-complicating?
It might depend on who’s playing and who’s dancing. I’ve heard recordings of slides played easily within the 152 bpm range or a bit faster - the speed was a revelation to me - but IIRC that pace was supposed to be an example of Sliabh Luachra tradition. While I haven’t made a study of that regional style myself, I have been assured more than once that folks do like their slides and polkas at a rippin’ pace in that part of Ireland. Can someone with better knowledge confirm or correct this?
Yeah, I know. Sometimes they are really really fast. OTOH, I’ve also found that people sometimes claim that they like various tunes at seemingly impossible speeds, but when you actually measure what they say they want, or what they actually play or dance, it can be a bit slower than they think.
True enough. I play for stepdancers from time to time and if we’re new to each other the usual is for them to request the pace by BPM, but I’ve never internalised metronome numbers (plus I keep forgetting to buy one), and anyway in keeping with what you say above I’m not given to trust their numeric assessments of what they really want, having seen that fail before. So I just ask 'em to go old-school and give me the pace they want by briefly tapping it out or bobbing their heads, whatever works. Works great.
I’d say that slides written 12/8 in fact have 2 strong beats per bar, not four. I’d think writing it in 6/8 and playing with 2 strong beats would give you a very different feel.
I am not sure of your notation here. Some of those syllables are longer than others, since you have ten syllables to the first bar and eleven to the second bar. If I cheat and look at the dots I find that Dum and DA in the first bar are crotchets, but I have no crotchets in my second bar…
It’s just how I would sing them Phil. I suppose it only works if you know how the tune goes. But then, that applies to conventional notation too. (We think it shouldn’t, of course, but if it didn’t, everyone who can read music would be able to play Irish tunes perfectly just from the sheet, and we know that isn’t what happens.)
This may help you decipher my “notation”: when you see two monsyllables paired together (dum-tee, da-ti) it’s a crotchet-quaver pair. The rest are groups of three (crotchets) oops that should have been quavers, except for the last syllable in the second example, which is a crotchet and would normally be followed by a quaver, but since that starts the next phrase I left it out.
Edit: the fact that it doesn’t match your dots doesn’t matter. I was just trying to demonstrate how the two main beats (the syllables in bold) fall in the bar. But if you’re not familiar with the sound of lilting, I can see it’s not going to be of much help.
Ah, with renewed confindence following StevieJ’s post [previous post, crossing with his last] I will say again what I deleted from my previous post (it did not add to the thread at the point at which it stopped)
I often find myself tapping my foot two to the 12/8 bar for slides, which makes them somehow feel slower than 6/8 jigs even if the tempo is higher. For example, the B part of Denis Murphy’s slide can sound almost lazy. |TUM-ti tum DID-er-ly dee|DID-er-ly did-erl-ly DA-dy dee| (white space between each 3/8 worth of notes)
Just the way I like it. I will stay out of any discussion where people are debating this.
If you ever get to play for dancers, it’s fairly apparent what sort of tune they want anyway - they’ll just hum it for you. They’ll say something like "You know, it goes sort of ‘Diddly diddly diddly diddly’ " or they might say "You know, it goes sort of ‘Dum-dy dum-dy daddle-dy dum’ " … and then you’ll know. 
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