The Later Bb Band Flutes

Hi all

I’ve been trying to pull together information on the later styles of Bb band flutes - you can see what I’ve found so far at:

http://www.mcgee-flutes.com/Later%20Bb%20flutes.htm

As you can see, I had to resort to some pretty dodgy copies of images I had lying about, so if you happen to have better images available of any of the models shown, I’d really appreciate a copy for inclusion. All help acknowledged of course.

And if you have access to a model of Bb bass band flute I’ve not shown, I’d appreciate an image of that too!

Thanks!

Terry

Cool stuff, Terry. Did anyone try to go any lower in the old days? How low can you go? The key of Limbo, I guess…these are (in Classical terms) Alto flutes, did/has anyone made a true bass flute (octave below D)? Doesn’t seem like much of a…stretch…

And here’s a double contrabass flute. Only four exist!

An aside but I notice when you load “A Visit to the 1862 London Exhibition” the header is “Pseudo Old-Style Fingerings.”

Terry i can send better pictures of my two bass flutes in your pictures if u want.

Can you explain why my Potter has two c natural vents i was wondering this myself.

Regards David

Yes, please David, some better images would be good. And I’ll certainly try to explain the two C vents.

Terry

I think low G was about as far as was practical without rather a lot of keys, although the mysterious Dr Burgley of Camden Town might well have gone lower. The DCM has quite a few of his and also McGregor’s. There are bass flutes in the Boehm world, but I don’t remember seeing a simple system bass.

Thomas Pinchoff, now living in Australia, has come up with a very low flute, which is lampooned here:

I still like the idea Richard Moon came up with of finding a long street with a string of man-hole covers running down it, positioning someone with a leaf blower at the first, and people with crowbars at the next six…

Terry

Terry here is a picture of the b flat bass flute i have in the house the others are away for repair at the mo.

I will get some pictures of the Potter uploaded and take some pics of the 2 c natural vents.

I take it most of these holes are covered for finger span reasons but on a lot ive seen the f and e hole are open is their a reason behind this?

Also it seems to have a funny mouthpiece with a raised part. Note that im not to good at recorking and just shoved in a cork from a bottle of plonk :slight_smile:

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Vewwy sexy

I hope that I do not sound rude (or truly stupid) in saying this, but “ Bb flutes ” usually referred to as band flutes were close to the piccolo range. They were useful for band and military use due to the ability of higher notes to travel. If they were developed for the band in addition to this, why did they need keys?

I think you are probably thinking more of the Bb fife, a simple cylindrical flute which was used by the military for signaling before the bugle took over its role. It resurfaced in the military band context (as opposed to solo fife player) as the Bb flute (a proper flute with conical body and 6 keys), but is only one of the range used in the band. The full range is (from top down):

Eb piccolo
Bb (treble)
F (treble)
Eb (just above our D flute)
Bb bass
F bass
Eb bass

Some of these were broken down into up to 3 separate parts in the score. The solo was usually taken by the Bb (treble), but there would be perhaps one solo, two “1st Bb”, three “2nd Bb” and three “3rd Bb” in a full band (26 broken up into 12 parts and 4 percussion). No wonder we see so many Bb (treble) flutes around!

Although conveniently notated in D (no matter what pitch it actually played), the band flutes still needed keys for accidentals and to play in keys other than “D” and “G” (really Eb and Ab). Heh heh, indeed, you’d need a lot of keys if you actually wanted to play in D or G! (like us playing in C# or F#!)

Terry

The keywork on that one certainly assists the stretch, but also allows the maker to put the holes beyond the human stretch, thus getting better tuning and performance. I imagine the earlier and the cheaper flutes had less keys - a hole is a lot cheaper than a key! So the ones you mention without the lower holes covered are going to be weaker than those with intellegent use of keys.

Also it seems to have a funny mouthpiece with a raised part. Note that im not to good at recorking and just shoved in a cork from a bottle of plonk > :slight_smile: >


The cork should be fine providing it doesn’t leak and its face ends up somewhere around the 20 to 25mm mark as measured from the centre of the embouchure.

The embouchure hole is very similar to those used in Germany in the late 19th century - a more rectangular hole with top surface shaping to assist the player to get the most out of it.

Terry

Looking at that image, us lefties were scr..wed back then!

Also odd that the cork is exposed like that. Interesting stuff. My subconscious reaction is to grab a champagne flute, not a musical one.

Might I suggest that you list references? I would really like to read where you came up with this information. Although your site is a wealth of knowledge, it sometimes seems like a dead end. Perhaps a “for further reading” section?

Fair point, I should keep in mind when doing pages. I haven’t really been thinking of them as “academic papers”, which properly should be footnoted.

I don’t have much to point to on band flutes. There’s certainly some in “The Flute”, by Philip Bate (What was I saying about all books on the flute being called “The Flute”.) Philip is the Bate of the fabulous Bate Collection at Oxford. He once gave me a Bb flute which I still have.

“Woodwind Instruments and their History” (Anthony Baines) has some useful stuff, even talking a bit about the North of Ireland bands, and giving a sample of an arrangement in seven flute parts and two percussion. Tony was the curator of the Bate collection (you can see what a narrow world we circulate in!) in the seventies. Very good man on bagpipes.

I think Ardal Powell’s recent book (innovatively titled “The Flute”) talks a little about the mediaval fifes and flutes which was the starting point for all of this. He also has a little on flute bands.

All I can think of for the moment - perhaps others can remind us of other stuff.

You will find a bit on current North of Ireland flute bands on the web, some keywords to start with would be Orange, Protestant, Ulster, flute, marching, band, Belfast; others will no doubt recommend themselves as you get into it.

And of course, we cannot pass up the opportunity to remind us all of the politics involved in this useage of the flute:

The Ould Orange Flute

In the county Tyrone, in the town of Dungannon
Where many a ruckus meself had a hand in
Bob Williamson lived there, a weaver by trade
And all of us thought him a stout-hearted blade.
On the twelfth of July as it yearly did come
Bob played on the flute to the sound of the drum
You can talk of your fiddles, your harp or your lute
But nothing could sound like the Ould Orange Flute.

But the treacherous scoundrel, he took us all in
For he married a Papist named Bridget McGinn
Turned Papish himself and forsook the old cause
That gave us our freedom, religion and laws.
Now the boys in the townland made some noise upon it,
They forced Bob to fly to the province of Connaught;
Took with him his wife and his fixins, to boot,
And along with the rest went the Ould Orange Flute.

At Mass on the Sunday to atone for past deeds,
Bob said Paters and Aves and counted his beads
Till one Sunday morn, at the priest’s own require
Bob went for to play with the flute in the choir.
He went for to play with the flute in the mass
But the instrument quivered and cried.“O Alas!”
And blow as he would, though he made a great noise,
The flute would play only “The Protestant Boys”.

Bob jumped and he started and got into a splutter,
He pitched the Ould Flute in the bless’d holy water;
He thought that this charm would bring some other sound,
When he tried it again, it played “Croppies Lie Down!”
And for all he would finger and finger and blow
To play Papish music, the flute would not go;
“Kick the Pope” to “Boyne Water” was all it would sound
Not one Papish bleat in it could e’er be found.

At a council of priests that was held the next day
They decided to banish the Ould Flute away;
They couldn’t knock heresy out of its head
So they bought Bob another to play in its stead.
And the Ould Flute was doomed, and its fate was pathetic
'Twas fastened and burnt at the stake as heretic.
As the flames rose around it, you could hear a strange noise
‘Twas the Ould Flute still a-whistlin’ “The Protestant Boys”.

Terry

Mr Bingham has one for sale here’s the page.

http://www.oldmusicalinstruments.co.uk/instruments/instrument_detail.php?id=209&cat=TF

As Terry says u mite find a bit of Band info using such words as Ulster/Protestant.

You will also find it using such words as Catholic/ Hibernain, Republican the Catholics in Northern Ireland have their own bands as well, most of them are dressed in combat clothing here is a link to one of them http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g4z0GGx_y4c

The Hibernians also have Catholic bands accompanying them on parade click here to see the Oath of this organisation http://www.residentgroups.fsnet.co.uk/oaths.htm

This is the other side of the coin of the bands in Northern Ireland!

The Flute world in general has a lot to thank the Protestant marching bands in Scotland and Northern Ireland as Northern Ireland gave us James Galway the best Flautist on the planet. He started with a protestant marching band. Also for any of yous flautists out their that play the Boehm Treble G this flute was made for a Protestant marching band from Scotland called Motherwell Old Comrades who were world champions.

http://www.ulsterscotsagency.com/fifeandflute.asp this will tell you a bit about our culture of flute and fife.

David