The rolls that you have gone to lengths to explain have been played on the flute for some time of course. Hardly surprising considering how much has and is being borrowed from piping on ‘that instrument’. There is an argument for some modern players borrowing from fluting a tad too much, or rather just not borrowing from the wealth of piping technique enough.
And there is a long line of distinguished fluter/pipers: Mike Carney, Tom Morrison, Willie Clancy, Seamus Ennis(!), Ronan Browne, Mick O’Brien…
These boys have knocked what I (and most) would consider distinctive enough piping out of pipes and reasonable to good to excellent fluting out of flutes… piping can exist outside of a bubble you know.
Form your own opinions. It’s the opinion forming process that is important, not the opinion.
If it’s of any use: opinions aren’t worth a shit unless they are backed up with a serious understanding of the material. I see an awful lot of opinions and not any huge display of knowledge where ITM is concerned (where most things are concerned actually).
My opinions aren’t worth a shit as much as the next man or woman’s, and I’m glad to say that they are not written in stone and are subject to change. The more I learn to shut my big, self obsessed, pig ignorant mouth and listen then the more my opinions change and the happier I become. It took a while… as on-going processes do.
I accept my own ignorance, but I learn by asking questions, and that’s why I asked. I don’t feel any burning need to separate anything in particular from ITM, but then again, I don’t know much about it. Why mention it if you don’t wish to discuss? I’m sure you have more experience in these matters than I do, so I was curious to learn what the reference was to.
I continue to listen, but am not afraid to ask, either.
Elsewhere I posted a version of Old Joe’s jig. In the first bar, there is an ‘f’ followed by two As. These two As are done in the “calm” manner described here, in which the chanter is completely stopped between the two notes, but the notes are aren’t clipped. I also noticed the triplet+quaver in the third bar is played with the notes separated from each other (ie the notes are not slurred together), but without the pippety-pop of the plosive staccato that Harry describes. In contrast, the staccato in bar 13 is quite plosive, and interesting, the emphasis that Harry referred to earlier is on the last note of the triplet before the fourth quaver.
You mentioned before about f tones (in particular you cited the ‘bold trainer o’). I’ve heard some players, not many mind, but include Clancy, Tommy Keane, O’Flynn, Mick O’Brien, roll an ‘off the knee’ F which has a quality I can’t describe, but sits alongside that Bold Tainer O. do you know, is there anything specific in this roll like not quite taking the knee or is it just a magic chanter thing?
Are you talking about the F natural off the knee (bottom hand ring and pinkie up and chanter off the knee) or the F# off the knee (bottom hand pinkie down and ring finger down/up dependending on chanter, middlefinger up)?
Alan, I know your query was directed to Harry, but I thought I’d point out that, yes, in that jig I posted, Old Joe’s, Mr. O’Flynn swells the F in bar 29 (the lone dotted crotchet). In this particular instance, he doesn’t roll it, but continues on to the A roll, but typically this would be rolled.
The trick in this bit is sequence starting with the E, and curling the F finger up while the chanter comes off the knee, and replacing it on the knee as the bottom two fingers go down on their holes. Coming off the knee as it slides through the various F naturalish tones (from half-holing and off-the-kneeness) gives them volume, but the whole thing resolves into an in-tune F#.
In this playing of Old Joe’s, O’Flynn lingers on this transistion back to the F#, but in other cases would get to the F# sooner, and roll it. This won’t work with some F# rolls described earlier, but I believe O’Flynn often plays an F roll with the two bottom fingers down, or did in 1971. Pat Sky could confirm this.
I don’t mean to say that this is what you were referring to, but it is in the same neighborhood. My chanter does allow me to roll F and E off the knee, if fingered correctly. Even so, they both under-pitch, but just enough to give it flavor.
Not a magic chanter thing i think though some do it better than others. take chanter off knee playing hard octave E (lpinkie on chanter), slide into F from E rolling the f once you get there. Your old chanter does it fine Alan It’s the way you slide it that eventually determines the sound of it.
I’ve been thinking about this and a comment you made earlier about exploring how ornaments can be used in different contexts (or something to that effect). One revealing way to look at piping technique is to examine a tune’s phrases through some other instrument. Not only does this help bring out the underlying skeleton of the phrase, but it casts a light on how the problem of putting flesh on it might be solved on the pipes.
I was recently listening to Denis Murphy play Col. Frazer and Steampacket, and while he doesn’t stray to far from a piping approach to these tunes, his playing made me listen more critically (and appreciatively) to specific Doran, Touhey, and O’Flynn (from 1968 recital) solutions to the phrasing. I like listening to the old Clare fiddlers for much the same reason – it gives me a wider view of the tunes that I’m familiar with.
I am of the same thinking, Eric. For “other instruments” I listen mostly to fiddling, but I prefer the Donegal style, especially the older players like John Dougherty or Francie Byrnes. At the risk of starting another mini-war over nothing at all, I will confess that I find many piping versions of tunes over-simplified. I value fiddle versions for their musicality as much as their ornamentation. This is were I find real worth, and try to incorporate some of the musical properties of the tunes back into the piped versions.
What do mean over-simplified? (and don’t be afraid, I’m actually interested). Someone on this forum once used the term “linear” in describing piping music. I thought this was interesting because piping is prone to having too many notes stuffed into a phrase by virtue of not being able to finger the ornaments quickly or cleanly enough. This can give a rhythmically flat result. Also fiddle players and flute players, I find, seem to get better emphasis by virtue of being able to vary the dynamics of their instruments.
In contrast, though, the pipes have notes which are distinctly different from each other, each with their own flavor. The most extreme example is when the bottom D is hit in a phrase. It tends to pop out. But all the other notes are likewise unique. I’m musing here, but it is possible that piping often isn’t simple enough, with better emphasis given to pauses and the effect on a phrase that individual notes provide.
Note that I should’ve inserted “my” before the word “piping” above, but it doesn’t read right. Ultimately, we are reflecting on our own playing.
True. Everything I say is relative to my own understanding and my own limited playing abilities.
But take any old tune you like on pipes and fiddle, remove the ornamentation, and you will likely hear a much more musicical version happening in the fiddle. Some of this is due to the setup for ornaments on pipes; leaving gaps for ornaments, or to make the ornaments stand out. But I would rather learn tunes from fiddle books versus the versions published for pipes due to the more musical versions in the fiddle books. I especially like to just listen to the Donegal style fiddle, not to learn a particular tune, but just to get the taste and feel that they put into their music.
As for the timbre of the pipes, this is, of course, unique, and their greatest attraction IMHO.
